Institute of Divine
Metaphysical Research®

How Can We Help?
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by Dr. Henry Clifford Kinley

1967 Convention:  July 19, 1967 (Wednesday)  7:30 – 10 PM session

Springfield, Ohio

CATALOG #:  67.0719PM

originally recorded by Burbank Mitchell on reel to reel

transferred to 1 90 minute audio cassette by Geraldine Rothstein

transcribed by Geraldine Rothstein

proofread by Mary Gross

approved by International Public Relations Committee – March, 1995


1.  … indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.

2.  Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.

3.  Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, uh, now, right, is that right?,  you see, see that now, understand, you understand.)

4.  ___ indicates an inaudible word or syllable

5.  WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber


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Scripture reading was Exodus 3

First speaker: Dr. Fred Allen Jr. (California)

Dr. Kinley: I know that you’ve enjoyed Dr. Allen.  If you did not, there’s something wrong with you.  I’ve been promising you that I would tell you some things about the Bible that the average person does not know.  It has been my contention, and I’ve asked you repeatedly to make me prove it, that I had a, a vision and a revelation, and that I was caught up to the 3rd heaven:  heard and saw things, 35 years ago, that I haven’t been able to ever…, in such a way that everybody would comprehend and understand what I’m talking about.  I stepped up and said, `the world out here is wrong,’ and the other fella say, `not, it’s you.’  I further stated that if there was anything in that Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, that I could not explain to you within your understanding, if you was listening, believe not. If I couldn’t do that, now this is fair, then I told you that I was a liar just like all the rest of them.  That’s really putting yourself on the spot.  Of my own self do nothing, my Father in me, He doeth the works. ___ ___ all over this country from coast to coast; and I wanna let you know that I have met some of the most brilliant academically trained, philosophical and scientific minded theologians and educators that there is in this world.  I say the same thing to you.  And when I tell you the truth like it is, and somebody is always saying, `that man does not know what he is talking about.’ 

     This is one of the things that I told you:  I say that no man on earth, no man, (that ought to clean the slate up, and whenever I say something I’m taking special, polytechnical things to tell you just like it ought to be told you) there is no man on this earth that knows the purpose of God but God Himself.  Somebody say, `Well, you’re mistaken about that.’  No, I’m not, I’m not mistaken.   Now to cover the water front and to give it to you straight, I must know, I must know the right and the wrong.  I must know the negative and the positive and if I don’t know the negative and the positive…  Let me impart it so you can understand what I’m talking about.  If I don’t know God and the devil both, I’m still a liar.  Ought not that to be fair.  The truth of it ___ ___. 

     I did not go to school to learn these things, and if I choose, I can employ academic expressions and use words that the biggest of the big boys use and every time I do it, they say, `now, that, that’s just one of the things that you ought not to be trying to cover up.  You went to school somewhere just like everybody else did and unless you have gone to school as the rest of us did, it would, it’s impossible for you to use such words as you employ.’  Now let us go back and get the true divine, etymological, which means original root of a word and then we’ll get over to the lexigological definition and meaning of a word, any word, and explain that.  We want to do it in such simplicity and such reality, chapter and verse in your Bible. 

     And I want you to know that the people have accused us of using a different Bible from what they use in the other churches.  Said, `I knew that there’s something wrong with that doctrine, I, I just knew that there was something wrong with it, and listen,’ reverend telling you, `now, you stay away from down at that school, that man is terrible, he is bad, don’t go down there, not the members of my congregation, if you go and we find out about it, you have subjected yourself, you have imposed it on yourself to be put out of this church, excommunicated.’  Look, if you just only realize that if some man puts you in the church (if you knew what the church was) you’d have him caught right there, he told on his own self.  Reverend gets up and says he’s going to open the doors of this church.  You got a Bible, it don’t make no difference whether it’s a Vulgate or Roman Catholic, it don’t make no difference whether it’s a King James version.  It doesn’t make any difference whether it’s aramaic, hebrew or greek, latin or otherwise, all of ’em say, `Behold,’ God talking, `I say behold, an open door and no man can shut it.’


Dr. Kinley:  I told you to your face.  We told you, and we’re going to tell you some things that you never heard in your life and you don’t know nothing about it.  You don’t understand nothing about it and one of the reasons why you don’t understand nothing about it, it’s because there hasn’t anybody told you anything about it, and it causes you to question.  Listen, the divine authenticity, the unerring accuracy of the Bible, be it whatever one you want to pick.  I want you to watch.  I want you to stir up in your mind. 

     I’m going right back over some of the things that Dr. Allen said.  Here’s one of the things that he told you.  He told you that the exodus was before the genesis.  Ordinarily anybody would say, `now, that’s the first lie I caught you in, all of the Bibles begin with Genesis.’  What is the meaning of the word genesis.  Genesis means origin.  What is the meaning of the word exodus.  Exodus means a departure from one place to the other.  That’s what the word exodus means.  Now here’s why we’re saying the exodus was before the genesis.  The exodus of Israel out of the land of Egypt, that simply means departure out of the land of Egypt, before Moses saw the vision of the creation.  Do you see why we say that?  Answer me!

Audience:  Yes.

Dr. Kinley:  Because he was called up into Mount Sinai and that was after the departure out of the Red, out of the land of Egypt through the divided waters of the Red Sea into the wilderness where God spoke to man, and thereafter called him up into the mount, showed him the vision so therefore then the exodus out of the land of Egypt was before the genesis.  In talking about the genesis which means origin, which means origin, beginning, he saw that in a vision up in the mount.  I want you to know, get the thing down right ___ ___ ___.  You know as well as I do that Moses, Moses was not present according to the record.  He was not the first man.  He cannot be co-eternal with God and be there to witness God doing anything because he is not yet born.  Does that make some kind of horse sense?  You get it now?  You get it now?  These are the things that we try to talk about and to tell you about and to show you about and to make you to understand about. 

     Listen.  Dr. Allen was talking with you about a rod, wasn’t he?  Listen, when Jacob went down into Egypt he had 12 sons.  You’ll have to be still, you’ll have to be quiet.  Quit distracting any attention at all because it is hard for me to utter.  I know that ___ ___ psychologically and mentally than I to impart it to you. You can’t talk to somebody next to you and be jabbing somebody and chewing gum and batting your eyes and looking all around.  You can’t do that.  This is for your sake. Take Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  You heard all that, right? 

Audience:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  Jacob, when he was an old man, stood upon his rod says in your Bible in the hebrew in Genesis 49 and 10 and he blessed each one of his 12 sons and told them what was going to happen.  Jacob come down from Canaan’s Land, down into Egypt with his sons. Joseph was sold by his brothers, 10 brothers.  `I thought you said, I thought he said, I thought there was 12.’  I said 10.  And Benjamin was not yet born and Benjamin was the young one that went down into Egypt with Joseph.  Everybody’s Bible says that.  He was sold down there into Egypt.  Listen.  Potiphar, pharaoh’s prince, bought Joseph and took him down into Egypt.  Pharaoh was very nice.  He was not a bad fellow, not this one, but by and by it did come to pass that there rose one up that was not as nice as this one.  Listen carefully.  And Pharaoh gave Joseph, Pharaoh gave Joseph, one of the 12 sons of Jacob, Potiphar’s daughter to be Joseph’s wife.  There is one of the 12 that is married to an Egyptian.  We never even pay no attention to it.  Never even think about it. 

     Then a little later on, then rose up another because Yahweh had said that He would multiply the Israelites in Egypt.  Listen, if you just want a resume on this in a condensed…, look at the 7th chapter of Acts of the Apostles.  Don’t do that now, when you get home.  Stephen preaching (and you might go back in the 6th), and Stephen preaching there, that’s why he was put to death.  Here’s what I want to, to tell you, I can’t tell you the whole story tonight.  I don’t expect to.  But now by and by, Amram and Jochebed was Moses’ father and mother.  That’s in anybody’s Bible.  Anybody can read it.  And the midwives had been instructed by this brutal Pharaoh that was raised up there, that the midwives was to put the male children to death.  And Moses’ mother hide him in her house as long as she could hide him.  And then she made a little ark and put him in it and put him on the river, hid him in the bulrushes.  And Pharaoh’s daughter went down to the river to wash herself and there she discovered Moses in that water and she drew him out of the water, Pharaoh’s daughter.  And Moses’ sister, Miriam, stood afar off and watched it.  When Pharaoh’s daughter drew him out she called him Moses.  She named him Moses, (listen, follow the story,) called him Moses and Pharaoh’s, Moses’ sister, Miriam spoke to Pharaoh’s daughter and said, `now I’ll go and call one of the hebrew woman to nurse him.’  This is God working, that’s what’s behind these things.  So Pharaoh’s daughter said, `Go.’  So Miriam, Moses’ sister, went to Moses’ mother, and Pharaoh’s daughter paid Moses’ mother (God is a wonder, ain’t He)  to nurse him.  That’s ___ ___.  Now if that ain’t cheating on the devil.  And she named him Moses.  Pharaoh’s daughter named him.  Moses means drawn out of the water. 

     So then after Moses grew up and he got so he could support himself and take care of himself, then he goes over into Pharaoh’s daughter’s house and he’s raised up there in Pharaoh’s daughter’s house. We’ve often time messed the thing up and said in Pharaoh’s house but, but she was in the family and it was Pharaoh’s daughter.  Pharaoh had 2 sons too.  So now to make a long story real short and try to get at the story so you can see what I’m talking about.  Aaron was 3 years older than Moses.  Always the oldest in the family, they become an heir to the father’s estate.  So now Aaron was the oldest, but he’s over there in Pharaoh’s daughter’s house.  Now Moses made that fatal mistake, so the devil would think, and he slew one of pharaoh’s family, that sister’s that rose, raised him up brother.  He took Aaron’s, his older brother’s rod, staff or cane, and slew this Egyptian.  And he buried him in the sand.  There was some hebrews watching and they saw and they didn’t say anything, so the next day Moses gets out and he sees a couple of hebrews fighting against one another and he goes up to them and he said, `now, you brethren you ought not, you can see I’m a hebrew and you know I’m with you and I got a pull.’  I’m trying to put it so you can see what I’m talking about.  And he thought that his hebrew brethren ought to have seen and know that he was over there and had pull with Pharaoh and them because he’s over there in their house.  This is what they said to him, `now, who made you a judge over us?  Pharaoh didn’t appoint you as a hebrew to be a hebrew out there knocking us around.’  I’m trying to explain it so you can understand it.  `He didn’t make you a judge, who made you a judge over us?’  Assuming that they ought to have known that since he was over there with them that he’d have the pull with them.  And this is what they said to him, `wilt thou slay us also as you did that Egyptian and hide him in the sand,’  That is to say, `we seen you, will you kill us and hide us in the sand as you did that Egyptian?’  Moses being there with Pharaoh’s daughter and knocking off her brother, he knows, he knows that wasn’t gonna work so well.  So he took Aaron’s rod or Aaron’s staff and fled out of Egypt.  He departed out taking Aaron’s, his older brother’s possession, his rod and staff.  Where’d it come from?  with the staff.  I just told you about Jacob and how it come down.  How he blessed the 12 and passed it on down.  I just told you about that.  Did you recognize that?  I’m showing you where he got it from and how it was passed on down and the old man good as dead, leaning on that staff, blessing them 12 sons and telling each one of them what’s gonna happen to them in the latter time before the deliverance.  You see where he got it from, how it passed on down.  Aaron is older than Moses, but Aaron let Moses have his staff and then Aaron, Moses, look, he fled on out of Egypt because he knew that thing was known and he knew that Pharaoh would kill him and so he fled and he went on out in the wilderness with this staff or with this, Aaron’s rod.  Do you understand that? Getting awful quiet around here. 

Audience:  (LAUGHS)

Dr. Kinley:  There he goes, walking up to the wilderness into the land of Midian.  He made it up to the wilderness and he sit down on the well.  You’ll find this in the first part of Exodus, 1st chapter, 2nd chapter:  you remember we had you to begin to read in the 3rd chapter of Exodus.  That’s what they read, 3rd chapter of Exodus.  Moses went out there in the wilderness and he set down by a well or on a well.  That’s what it says in, in the book of Exodus.  I haven’t seen no theologians yet, in all of their supposed wisdom, divine wisdom and intelligence and knowledge, that recognize anything at all.  They just read and read and read, ever learning, never able to learn nothing.  And he set down on that well.  And Jethro, the priest or prince of Midian, had 7 daughters and he had a flock of sheep and Jethro’s daughters went down there to that well to water their flock.  Jacob had dug that well and that Moses was setting on.  Here comes along the Messiah (I’ll have to make this real quick), and He told the disciples, `Now you go but don’t go in the way of the gentiles,’ finally by and by He said, `It must, you must needs go through Samaria.’  And He went and set down on Jacob’s well, set there and said to the woman come out to draw water and He asked her for a drink.  And she said, `Now, don’t you know that the Samaritans and the hebrews, they don’t have no dealings.’  He said to her, `If you knew who you was talking to you would have asked of me a drink and I would have given you living water.’  `Oh,’ she said, `please, give me some of that.’  He said to her, `go, call your husband.’  Now Jethro’s daughters they don’t have no husbands.  The same well, the same one incarnated, setting down there where Moses set and she said, He told her, `now, you have how many husbands and the one you got now is not your own.’  And she went back into Samaria and she told everybody to come out there and see a man that told me all about my life.  You see now that’s over here in the exodus.  He’s just fulfilling.  He’s setting on the same well, Jacob’s well.  Jacob the father of the 12 tribes, but somebody said, `No, I want you to read that over there in the New Testament.’  That means he don’t know nothing about it. 

     Jethro or Reuel gave Moses Zipporah, his daughter, to become his wife and Moses had 2 sons by Zipporah.  Zipporah was not a hebrew.  We have Moses married to the Midianite woman.  Right?

Audience:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  Say, don’t you overlook that, that’s Moses and Moses was of the tribe of Levi.  Levi was one of the 12 sons of Jacob that come down in that tribe.  Joseph, another one of the sons that we told you about that was sold down there was, Pharaoh gave him ___.  Joseph ___ his son or prince’s daughter to be.  Here you got Joseph mixed up with an egyptian.  Here you got Moses all mixed up with it.  Reverend ain’t thought a thing about it. 

     Now then, when Moses, Moses was 40 years old when he slew the Egyptian and buried him in the sand.  40 years old.  And then he fled on out and into the wilderness.  That’s what this is all about.  See the chart here, how it’s drawn.  Fled from the face of Pharaoh and here he takes Aaron’s rod or Aaron’s staff.  You see what I got in my hand.  Here he walks up through the valley and the shadow of death leaning on his own brother’s rod.  The tribe of Levi formed the priesthood.  And the tribe of Judah, so said Joseph, was, out of the tribe of Judah, the scepter shall not depart from Judah nor the lawgiver from between his feet until shiloh comes.  The scepter shall not depart from Judah nor the lawgiver from between his feet until shiloh comes and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.  That’s what Jacob told his sons standing there.  The scepter, rod ___ thou shalt not depart from thee till shiloh comes, and unto him shall be the gathering of the people.  That means this:  that He must come out of that tribe of Judah.  There’s something else you don’t pay no attention to.  You go sound asleep, never thought nothing about it and I haven’t heard nothing about it.  I’m 71, going on 72 years old and read the Bible all of my life and been going to church just like you and I never heard nothing about it.  You pay attention to it and then this will, this will help you.  This will help you. 

     Moses is out here in the wilderness.  He’s 40 years old when he went out there and he stayed out there 40 years.  At the end of the 40 years, he’s out here at this


Dr. Kinley:  because the ground on which you stand is holy ground. In other words consecrated and dedicated, take your shoes off, don’t come no further.  Time expired? 

Audience:  No. 

Dr. Kinley:  Don’t come no further.  What is happening here is:  this ground here, we’re going to put the tabernacle on it in the wilderness.  What tabernacle?  He’s gonna call him up in the mount and show him a tabernacle, in other words, he’s going to transform into this tabernacle, transfigured into it.  Moses is gonna see that in a vision and then he’s supposed to come down this mount and build that one.  This one, intangible tabernacle, out of the material that they took from the Egyptians and brought out here.  ___ build that tabernacle so don’t come no further to this burning bush.  Here it is.  You see it right here.  There is a fire on that altar, water in the laver, and a golden candlestick in this sanctuary ___ ___ ___.  Don’t come no further because this ground right here is dedicated specifically for that purpose.  Listen and you follow me now.  Follow me close.  Elohim talking to him at that burning bush, as you see here with his shoes off, sending him off, to send him back down into Egypt.  I want you to watch.  He said, `Now, what shall I tell them when I go back down, who sent me?’  You see, you see him holding this cane.  When we draw these pictures, we’ve got to be very, very careful and particular about it, to get everything in it of importance.  And Dr. Allen told you that Elohim, Moses wants to know, said, `Now, how will I know that they, that you sent me.’  Said, `now, what’s that you got in your hand,’ in the 4th chapter and the first verse. Read. 

Reader:  And Moses answered and said

Dr. Kinley:  And Moses answered and said

Reader:  but behold they will not believe me

Dr. Kinley:  But behold.  They won’t believe me down there when I go back down there.  They’re not going to believe me; and a lot of things I read to you out of the Bible read it out of the Bible and you still don’t believe.  Moses is particular about it, he’s concerned.  A lotta people that have been healed of all kinds of diseases, setting in this audience and then somebody says, `I don’t believe.’  How am I gonna make them know that you, I just got through telling you, I can’t heal nobody.  I can’t do nothing.  And the Messiah said, `I can’t do nothing, my Father in me, He doeth the work.’  Well then, all these people healed, a whole bunch of them and medical doctors over here and examined them and in the hospital and somebody say, `Well, I don’t believe that.’  And some stupe jumped up and said, `listen, I’m preaching holiness, preaching divine healing, James said if any sick among you, let him call up of the elders of the church and let them pray and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord, pray for him, shall save the sick and if he hath committed sin God will raise him up, let him know.’  Listen, now look, he ain’t talking about none of this junk people talking about around here.  And then somebody standing around smearing some oil on somebody here, said, `James said – do that.’  We see it on t.v. and some of them said, `I’m preaching the word of God, I’m a healer, faith healer.’  If these people have been healed of any disease at all


Dr. Kinley:  and I told you I could not do it.  And then You know that if they are healed, you know just like the Messiah said my father in me and if it is done, you don’t have no right to be standing around arguing with that.  Then listen, I want you to know this.  You just might as well quit and quit cold tonight.  I’m repeating what I told you this morning, this afternoon rather.  You just as might as well quit now.  Everybody.  We’re going to have an immortal body that the spirit in there will change this mortal to an immortal, and nobody got nothing that won’t be healed.  Do you understand?  Now if that’s not so, then we just might just as well quit.  And somebody got the nerve to jump up, `don’t you believe God can heal your body.’  If he knew what it is all about, he’s the fellow that don’t believe it.  And on top of all that, just in case, and to shove the responsibility down your throat, if you didn’t get healed then we blame it on you and we say `you didn’t have faith.’  Now that gets me out from under the gun.  You see the point.  So it’s not that way, see what I mean.  Now these signs follow them that believe.  And I tell you I can’t speak nothing like that and I’m not rubbing nobody down in no olive oil and no kinda salve, psychological salve or olive you get out of a drug store.  It’s just symbolical of the spirit.  And I just want you to know the truth about it.  I want you to know these satanic tricks.  Come clean, there’s no such thing as a divine healer on earth.  There never has been, and there never will be, that includes the Messiah.  And He said that my Father in Me doeth the works and that was evidence that his Father was in Him.  Now do you see that now? 

     Now listen.  I want to show you.  Now how them people down there in Egypt gonna know when I go down there and tell them that Elohim of our fathers and the Elohim of Abraham, and of Isaac and of Jacob sent me, how are they gonna know?  Said, `now, what’s that you got in your hand’ and he said what? Read it.

Reader:  And Yahweh said unto him, what is that in thy hand

Dr. Kinley:  This is Moses, this is, is Aaron’s rod that he’s got, he’s still got it in his hand and when he went out there, gotta carried it around 40 years and he’s still got it and he didn’t miss carrying it out there that day.  Now he’s a shepherd, (is that right?)  He’s a shepherd taking that shepherd’s staff that, that hook on there and right around that lamb and rescue him.  `What you got in your hand.’  You out there herding sheep.  Now what’s that you got in your hand?’  and he said `a rod.’

Reader:  Aaron’s rod.

Dr. Kinley:  All right read.

Reader:  And he said cast it on the ground

Dr. Kinley:  Now this is how the folks down in Egypt gonna know:  he said cast it on the ground.

Reader:  And he cast it on the ground

Dr. Kinley:  And he cast it on the ground

Reader:  And (LOUD NOISE)

Dr. Kinley:  Read

Reader: And it became a serpent

Dr. Kinley:  And it became a serpent

Reader:  And Moses

Dr. Kinley:  And Moses fled


Someone in audience:  Get out of the way.

Dr. Kinley:  it became a serpent.  Now then he told him to come back is that right?  Don’t back away, no, no don’t do that, take him by the tail and Moses took him by the tail and it become a rod again.  Is that right?

Audience:  Right, right. 

Dr. Kinley:  Now can you imagine a thing like that becoming a rod, said, `now that’s how they gonna know that I sent you.’  And so now Moses said, `well now,’ he still ain’t satisfied, said, `will you be with me, well where are you gonna be?’  Said, `certainly I will be with you.’

Audience:  Right, right

Dr. Kinley:  Right?

Audience:  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  Now look, every man out there that Moses out there by himself around 3 o’clock in the afternoon when that cloud becomes a pillar of fire that you see here on the mountain, and listen and he goes back down into Egypt to pharaoh to deliver.  Is that right?

Audience:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  And now here we got some Jannes and Jambres down there, some of pharaoh’s magicians, some serpents, Moses cast that rod down, (I have to cut this up short) cast that rod down before pharaoh and it became a serpent. Jannes and Jambres said, `well now look’ and they got them out there and they cast their rods, Jannes and Jambres.  There’s one rod, Jannes is another and Jambres is another.  Now you say that you got the Father, Word, and the Holy Ghost and you say these three are one.  Now you got some magicians down here, some stunt performers, just like these Jannes and Jambres is standing up here creating Christ over some bread and crackers and saying He says do it.  Now then, listen, Moses cast that rod down and Jannes and Jambres cast theirs down.  Moses’ rod became a serpent.  Their rods became a serpent but the difference is:  Moses’ rod ate theirs up, swallowed theirs up.  So now Moses taking up his rod again, they done lost theirs.

Audience:  (LAUGHS) 

Dr. Kinley:  Now here comes the Messiah speaking and he never spoke without a parable that these signs shall follow them that believe, they shall take up serpents and down there in West Virginia you got somebody down there with rattlesnakes and all trying to show you how sanctified he is, saying the Messiah say to do this.  You get it now.  You got a wrong snake.  He’s a serpent hisself.

Audience:  Right, that’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  It’s bad when a serpent bites a serpent.

Audience:  (LAUGHS) 

Dr. Kinley:  Now you see that. Now look, I wanna continue on with this.  Don’t stop me when times comes but I wanna try to cover as much of this as I can and I want you to know that I cannot finish it tonight and I will work on it tomorrow night.  And that’s one of the things that we’re going to do while we’re here.  Now Moses went back down with that same rod, Aaron’s rod.  Now look, now you listen, now the telephone system was not in operation at that time.  And the lines of communication were not open.  Alexander Graham Bell hadn’t done anything about it at this time.  Now here’s what I want you to see.  I want you to see the mystery in the thing.  Now Aaron was down there in Egypt, and now Moses is coming down here in Egypt and Aaron, his brother, met him.

Audience:  Right, that’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  How’d he get the message?

Audience:  (LAUGHS) 

Dr. Kinley:  And then they went on back into Egypt together and delivered the message to pharaoh.  Is that right?

Audience:  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  Well now I’m in an awful hurry.  I’m in an awful hurry.  This Elohim we’re talking about that is talking with him out there at this burning bush, and Yahweh, and the angel.  Dr. Allen told you when he was talking to you, he brought it out in Hebrew, Ayah Asher Ayah.  I told you that the meaning of that by interpretation, I will be what I will to be.  So now when he threw the rod down, he willed to be a serpent.  I told you when I got up here, I had to know the negative and the positive, and if I didn’t know the negative and the positive, I told you, I too was a liar just like all the rest of them.  You see what I mean?  And I told you they’ve got to explain things from Genesis to Revelation.  I’m still alive.  And I must know the scriptures, and if I don’t know them, I cannot impart to you.  You see what I mean.  Now I want you to get the 24th chapter of Exodus and the 1st verse. 

Reader:  And he said unto Moses

Dr. Kinley:  Wait a minute.  Now Joshua, Joshua the son of Nun, say when somebody tells you something and you got it in the Book, what do you want to start an argument for?  Joshua the son of Nun that just means that he was the son of none.  What do you mean?  He’s just old man Nun’s son, no, old man Nun just wasn’t down there.  It meant just exactly what it said.  Yahweh Elohim just appeared as a man and nobody down there was his father.  He was the son of N-O-N-E.  As you have it in your English form – N-U-N, down there.  Listen.  Jacob had 12 sons and Joshua was not the son of none of them.  Now Joseph had two sons.  Manasseh was the oldest, Ephraim was the youngest one, and this Joshua the son of Nun is attached (in the 13th chapter of Numbers) to Ephraim.  I told you in the case of Aaron and Moses, Aaron was three years older than Moses.  And Joshua was the oldest son of Joseph by pharaoh’s daughter.  `How’d you get that, I thought you said he was Potiphar’s daughter’s a while ago.’  I did, and that’s right but all of you in here, when it comes to a king and kingdom, they’re sons and daughters of em. Is that almost right?  That’s your king and your queen.  Alright, I don’t have time to worry with that.  Now Joshua, now we’re gonna have to work on this Joshua case some more.  I’m, I’m telling you now we, we can’t get that straightened out right now but now here’s what I want you to see.  I want you to see this. You must see it. And it don’t make horse sense for me to stand around here and tell you that Joshua did not have no father and he did not have no mother.  Old man Nun, he was the son of none, nobody down in Egypt, and the Book says so.  Now Yahweh just, He willed to be a man down there in Egypt, the son of none.  Now you watch this story.  Alright.  Now here goes Moses’ minister, Joshua is Moses’ minister and when Moses got to the Red Sea, the Book says they didn’t see no similitude in the cloud and in the sea, didn’t see no similitude or no man or nothing like that in there, but He was in there, was in that cloud and I’m gonna prove that to you.  Alright.  Now, try to keep your eye on the mystery over here.  Try to keep your eye on the mystery over here and don’t you forget we throwed that cane down here and it become a serpent.  Don’t you forget that, he told him to take it up by the tail.  Don’t you forget that.  Out, out there at the burning bush.  Don’t forget that.  Get the point.  Now here’s Joshua, Moses’ minister, he lead them on through here, in this cloud.  And this same cloud that they went under hovered over the top of this Mount Sinai and Elohim spoke from that mount and He give them that 10 commandments after that they had, had been gathered at the mount 7 days, and then afterwards he called him up into the mount.  See the manna coming down from there just like the manna ___ ___.  A whole lot to do with it and by and by, after a while we’ll find out before these meetings is over.  Now look, now I want you to read the 24th chapter of Exodus and the 1st verse.

Reader:  and he said unto Moses

Dr. Kinley:  and he said unto Moses

Reader:  come up unto Yahweh

Dr. Kinley:  come up unto Yahweh

Reader:  thou

Dr. Kinley:  thou

Reader:  and Aaron

Dr. Kinley:  Aaron

Reader:  Nadab and Abihu

Dr. Kinley:  Nadab and Abihu, do you see anything about Joshua there?

Audience:  No.

Dr. Kinley:  Do you?

Audience:  No

Dr. Kinley:  Alright read on.

Reader:  and 70 of the elders of Israel

Dr. Kinley:  and 70 of the elders of Israel

Reader:  and worship ye afar off

Dr. Kinley:  and worship ye afar off

Reader:  and Moses alone shall come near Yahweh

Dr. Kinley:  and Moses alone shall come near Yahweh.  Listen, listen at me.  Moses alone, now you reading out of the Bible, folks.  Moses alone shall come near.  Is that right?  Read.

Reader:  but they shall not come nigh

Dr. Kinley:  and they shall not come nigh

Reader:  neither shall the people go up with him

Dr. Kinley:  neither shall the people go up with him. Alright now I’m in a hurry.

Reader:  and Moses came and told the people all the words of Yahweh

Dr. Kinley:  and

Reader:  and all the judgments; and all the people answered with one voice

Dr. Kinley:  That’s right

Reader:  and said, all the words which Yahweh hath said will we do

Dr. Kinley:  Alright read on. 

Reader:  and Moses wrote all the words of Yahweh

Dr. Kinley:  Alright

Reader:  and rose up early in the morning.

Dr. Kinley:  and Moses wrote all the words of Yahweh and rose up early in the morning.  Read on.

Reader:  and builded an altar under the hill

Dr. Kinley:  builded an altar

Reader:  and 12 pillars according to the 12 tribes

Dr. Kinley:  and 12 pillars according to the 12 tribes

Reader:  of Israel

Dr. Kinley:  and then you’ve got the commandments. Skip on down.

Reader:  13. and Moses rose up

Dr. Kinley:  and Moses rose up

Reader:  and his minister

Dr. Kinley:  hold it. Moses rose up, ‘member he said now Moses alone.  You can read. Moses alone rose up–and who?

Reader:  and his minister Joshua

Dr. Kinley:  and his minister, who’s he?

Reader:  Yahshua

Dr. Kinley:  answer

Audience:  Yahshua

Dr. Kinley:  Yahshua.  Moses and his minister Joshua rose up.  Well where’s he going.  Where’s Joshua going?  Told Moses to come in that cloud alone, don’t bring nobody with you.  You got it.  You just read it.  And when Moses rose up, Joshua his  minister rose up.  Is that right?  Now where is Joshua going?  See that now?  Now here’s the Messiah come along, said `I didn’t come to be ministered unto but to minister.’  Joshua the son of Nun is Moses’ minister.  ___ ___ ___ Moses tell him.  You see what I mean?  No, he wasn’t born to no woman and no man, son of none.  Somebody say, `I don’t believe that, I just don’t believe that, that’s all there is to that.’  Alright, then you explain this to me.  You can get busy, you have plenty of time too.  You tell me who Adam’s father and mother was.  All you gotta do, just explain that.  You got to believe that one.

Audience:  (LAUGHS)

Dr. Kinley:  You see what I mean?  Now if you’re not gonna buy that about Joshua son of none, you’re not gonna buy that old man Nun is around somewhere then you have to get somebody from somewhere, gotta give Adam a mamma and a papa, dig ’em up. Got to be the son of somebody.  Now he entered into that cloud.  Moses entered into that cloud, (is that what it says?) and Moses entered that cloud and ‘member the 1st verse told him, 2nd verse told him you come in this cloud alone and by yourself.  Is that right?

Audience:  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  And Moses went in by himself, made, made special things.  Now these are some of the things that the minister don’t know nothing about.

Audience:  Right, that’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  Moses went in there alone.  Joshua the son of none, there He was in there appearing to Moses, transfigures, transformed and explains it right there in the 9th and the 16th verses and describes how you’re one of his people. Is that right?

Audience:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  Now here comes Elohim, Jesus so you say, He’s gonna fulfill the law and the prophets, and I’d like to ask you if He’s gonna fulfill the law and the prophets when He’s taking Peter, James and John up into the mountain. Wasn’t He born, wasn’t He there, wasn’t He a man, wasn’t He walking around here when He took ’em up there and transfigured in the transfiguration. Wasn’t He?

Dr. Kinley:  Yes, alright.

Dr. Kinley:  And I’d like for you to know that he said, he said so, Moses was a long way, 430 years to be a little specific, from Abraham.  And Messiah said, `before Abraham was I am.’  Said, `you’re not yet 50 years old.’  So then he’ll have to be not the son of Joseph as it was supposed to be.  And for your information if He was way back there he cannot be the son of Mary.  You heard me, you’re not blind.  The Roman Catholics say Mary’s the Mother of God, and it was not from the spermatic fluid, passed down from fallopian tubes into the womb of the virgin Mary.  It’s not that.  It was not that spermazoa and set it into the womb of that woman that caused His birth.  It just passed on through there.  That which is conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit.  Is that right?

Audience:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  You see it now?  The Word was made flesh.  The Word, spirit, is made flesh.  And I’m standing around telling you matter is spirit materialized.  Now if you can find some other source for matter  to come from other than a spirit, you’ve got me licked.  I see time is expired but I do want you to see that what this was, is transformed within that cloud ___ ___ ___.  And Moses alone in there by himself. Joshua is his minister.  And now in order to fulfill this Jesus had to carry them up in the mountain and repeats the same thing right over.  Now was He a man in the flesh?  ___ ___ ___  Now we’ll get into this ___.  Now one thing I wanna say to you ___ ___ ___ tomorrow night ___ ___ ___.  Now He’s also transformed into this tabernacle and Peter, James, and John hears the conversation that Moses had here.  And this tabernacle is the figure of your physical body.  It is 3-fold so also in form, so is your body.  An atom is three-fold so also is that.  And then let me say this.  Now don’t forget.  Mull this over in your mind, that old serpent out there in the garden of Eden, (get that somebody real quick,) that old serpent out there in the garden of Eden ___ ___ ___, that old serpent, now He’s transformed into trees, serpent, angel, Adam, everything – the birds, the bees, the sun and the moon and the stars and so forth and so on.  Somebody said, `I don’t understand it and neither do I believe it.’  When they crossed over the river Jordan, Joshua the son of Nun commanded the sun and the moon to stand still just as He commanded the, these here to stand still. 

Audience:  (LAUGHS) 

Dr. Kinley:  Now Reverend don’t know nothing about that kinda thing.

Audience:  Right, that’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  Now you have to have a spiritual mind to understand those things and you, I didn’t get off of the Book.  And he saw that vision up there in that mount and we’re gonna go on into it and everything there is in it and we’re gonna get you in, in on it.  And let you know that we know you from the spermazoa that formed you into a human being and we’re gonna find out whether you’re in that Book and we’re gonna tell you more about this Joshua and this cane in the book of Jaspar, the book of the upright.  We’re not near through.  Now you come on back tomorrow night.  Not going, not going, not going to bother, not going to worry with it tomorrow afternoon.  I’m gonna try to fix it so you can be off from work, so you don’t have no excuse and no alibi.  And if you go out there to talk to somebody and they tell you I don’t believe that stuff, bring ’em with you.

Audience:  (APPLAUDS)   


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