Institute of Divine
Metaphysical Research®

How Can We Help?
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by Dr. Henry Clifford Kinley

recorded by Dr Carl F. Gross on reel to reel recorder

transferred to audio cassette by Geraldine Rothstein

1 60 minute and 1 30 minute audio cassette


transcribed by Mary Colucci

proofread by Michael Rothstein and Geraldine Rothstein

proofread and approved by the International Public Relations Committee: 1996


1.  … indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.

2. Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.

3. Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, uh, see, you see, you see what I mean, ain’t that right, isn’t that right, understand, you understand, do you understand).

4. ___ indicates an inaudible word or syllable

5. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber

Tape 1 Side A

Dr. Kinley: I think it would be in order for me to explain now which is nothing but a repetition or repeating it over again that you see these charts and you see how they are made up. And I would like to tell you that there isn’t anybody on earth that can actually draw these charts like they ought to be to show you every polytechnical thing. It just can not be done. Now, I think we did a fairly good job. I’m not talking about passing no art test cause I know they will not do that. If you look at ‘em you’d find many bad and drastic failures when it comes to art. So we were not trying to follow that. But what we were trying to do is to convey a thought to you. Well now why am I telling you these things? Is because first of all I want you to understand that these charts, they reflect the purpose of God. And you can’t do nothing without them. Nobody can. No school, nowhere under the sun can do anything without a knowledge of what you see printed on these charts. But I didn’t want you to think that this was an art exhibition.

We know better than that. And we’re not all proud of it because of this artistic value. But, the thing that we want you to realize is, and we try to convey some kind of a thought to you. Now I’m gonna point out some of the reasons and show you that you’ll have to realize and then we’re gonna get back on this, on this, these prophecies and what not. And incidentally we brought the little books along tonight. Last week I said, I made the statement that Jehovah Witnesses had said that these days of the creation were 7,000 years long each day. And some young lady setting over here see after class, class was dismissed, she said Jehovah’s Witnesses did not teach that. And so I told her they did. And if she wished to I, I would see to it that she got the book. And she could read it in that book for herself. Well I brought it along tonight. Now what happens is this. A lot of them, that go to these various different meetings around and in almost any denomination you wanna talk about whether its Catholic or Protestant, actually don’t know the doctrine.

Student Body: That’s right.

Dr. Kinley: And that goes for the priests in the Roman Catholic Church. They don’t know. And if, from the Pope on down, knew what it, really knew, what it was all about, he wouldn’t be going off out there someplace on his summer vacation to meditate whether or not that they should endorse contraception. There wouldn’t be any question about whether they should eat meat on Friday or what not telling you what it was all about. Get the point? And all those things that they brought up at the ecumenical council, while as to have some confirmatory decision whether that, they should be some revision of their previous stand in the Roman Catholic Church. In other words, the Ecumenical Council should not have convened in the first place if they had known what it was all about. Because for this reason there was a council that convened before them. But that just so happened to be upstairs. I’m talking about God and His purpose. And he decreed and declared the end from the beginning. And he didn’t have nobody to consult. And he didn’t have no hindrance and no obstruction to carry out anything that He declares. Get the point? Am I getting it over to you? Well now when you pick up books from various different cults and denominations and sects and what not, and read those, you know without me telling you there are people in all of these different churches, now you know that. But now I’ll say this. If any one of ‘em was right, the others would fall by the weight of that one. So it would pay you to do a little investigation. And don’t be so stubborn about what you thought and what you believe and all those kind of things that you have been taught previous all your life, don’t make no difference whether it’s Catholic or Protestant or Buddhist or Muhammedist or what ever it is, it is ____ to do a little investigation. For the simple reason why, know this: that there is deception in the world. And it is possible for you to be deceived. It’s possible. And there isn’t but one way to keep you from being deceived and that is you must let the barriers down and be willing to accept the Word of the Lord.

Student Body: Okay.

Dr. Kinley: Now that’s the only hope and possibility. Now it don’t make no difference about some council agreed to do and how they decided about it. You just must take what the Lord has said. And I’ve said this time and time again, the same thing I’m fixing to tell you, can’t nobody in the world explain and tell you what the purpose of God is and how it is carried out so that it makes sense to you but God Himself.

Student Body: That’s right.

Dr. Kinley: Now that oughta settle that argument. Then I tried to tell you something else. We have all had different concepts and ideas and opinions. Everybody. But you don’t have no justifiable reason to conclude that you know what it’s all about and don’t nobody else know but you so that you and your dogmas must be outstanding. It’s not that. You might been able to recite anything that you believe by heart but that doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re right about it. All of us has got Bibles. I doubt seriously whether anybody in here or not cause in America you must go to school. I doubt seriously whether there’s anybody in here that can’t read a Bible. That’s why you hear me say that this is not, definitely not a Bible reading. scripture quoting contest. That’s not what we’re down here for. Who can recite the most, and who can remember chapter and verse the most and all. All of those things have been misappropriated and misinterpreted and misapplied. Anything you wanna read in the Bible. So it just can’t be that. Now, I want you to see first now, we, we try to, everything we do here, we try to give you some figures if its mathematics or if its allegories or metaphors or symbolism or if prophetic intervals or if its political or whatever it is. I told you time and time again we challenge the world. And if I tell you, if you’ll allow me to boast that much, if I tell you that some of these denominations or cults said a certain thing, they said it, cause I won’t tell you that they said something that they didn’t say.

Student Body: Right. That’s right. That’s the truth

Dr. Kinley: Now we wrote a book and I said many things in this book, that the Roman Catholics said. This book is documented. Now what I mean by documentation is this. This is what I mean. I mean I told you who said it. And where you can go and find it and read it for yourself. I told you in the book where it come from and who said it. Now when I put that in the book now they wanna cut my head off for what they said. And I had to get their permission before I could put it in this book. And you can’t write a lie in this book, you understand because if you do, then this is what’s gonna happen. Then they’ll sue you for libel.


Dr. Kinley: …have so many representatives you understand before you can incorporate. See if you happen to mess up then they sue the incorpore… incorporation. I’ve been sayin‘ these things, same thing for thirty-five years, before we printed that book in 1961. And some of them are horrifying things. They’re disgraceful and shameful. But you haven’t heard nothing about no suit have you? I just dare any of them to attempt to sue this organization for some that is in that book. And if what was in that book wasn’t so you would have heard about it. I’m trying, the thing I’m trying to get you to say, see, I don’t stand up there and make statements that can’t be verified. Now the little book over there. Now, this is a book. I told the young lady I was quoting about. The Jehovah’s Witnesses said that these days represents, each one of these days represents 7000 years. And there was 42.., God was 42000 years in creating the heavens and the earth. And she said Jehovah’s Witness didn’t teach that. Is the young lady here tonight? Now people’ll get up and walk off. Get the point? ____ ____ ____ she said. Now listen let me tell you something. Dr. Gross knows I’m telling the truth. In Springfield, Ohio, in 1955 we had a room that we met in and held class in. We paid the rent ourselves. And let Jehovah’s Witnesses hold their meeting in it free of charge. And beat ‘em to death on everything till they moved. And we have been ____ almost every where we go for 45 years. Dr. Harris you was back there one time, Sister Mary, you was back there, Sister Marion you was back there one time, back there ____ in Springfield, not Cincinnati not too long ago. And they come out of Middletown because they had my brother up there, he was teaching up there in Franklin, and they come all the way from, Brother Williams picked ‘em up from Franklin to Middletown, from Middletown down to Lockland. Now they been sure, they been hearing about that Dr. Kinley, he’s a great teacher, they wanted to see me. So when Dr. Harris and I and Sister Mary and Sister Harris went there. Here they come. And they sat and they heard Dr. Harris teach and I got up behind Dr. Harris and then they wanted to say now there’s different places where we was wrong at. And finally by and by, I don’t have, I don’t have nothing else but time. 120 minutes don’t limit by ability. Take me longer than that to tell you what I know. So we fought that night until about two o’clock in the morning. And they said I was about 99% right. They said that in the classroom. About two or a little after two in the morning. Then they never said that until they got out in the hall. And then when they got out in the hall, I thought I’d take the other one percent. I’m telling it straight ain’t I Doc?

Person: Yes, you were.

Dr. Kinley: And so we finished out in the hall and they tied the ribbon on and said well.., we give up. Now different ones had come into this school. They don’t know these things. They don’t realize ‘em. Now I told you time and time again I know everybody’s doctrines, even the heathen, the heathen doctrine. And I don’t care too much about telling my age, but I’m a little over seventy. And all of my life from a child on up has been devoted to studying what the other fella thought. I was just born that way. Get the point? Now I know what you think. And I know why you think it. And everything you think is wrong. Why? Because that’s what you thought. Your mind just don’t function on that plane. If it already functioned on that plane then there wouldn’t be no need of conversion. Get the point? Wouldn’t be no need of it. But it’s not, it’s, it’s not even logical to assume or to think that a carnal mind functions on a spiritual plane.

Student Body: Right.

Dr. Kinley: And to be carnal minded to begin with is enmity against God, for the carnal mind can not please God. And now that’s what, that’s the reason why I tried to tell you. Look up here. A carnal mind and carnal ordinance function together. Now if a carnal mind and carnal ordinances functions together. Lotta people didn’t even know what a carnal ordinance was till they come here. Yet and still, they was all saved and had the Holy Ghost. And I’m not talking about no one person. I’m talking about that’s the way it was with everybody.

Student Body: That’s the truth.

Dr. Kinley: They thought they had something. I was assistant Pastor, I ought not be disgraced on telling on myself. And if it’s true in my case it’s almost got to be true in yours. Because I am as you are and you are as I was. How that that? (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS) How’m I doing? Am I getting anywhere? Now I done preached holiness for 15 years. And for not like my sermons and all that, and I’m preaching the holy consecrated life 15 years in the Church of God just like Dr. Williams was 18 years in the Church of Christ. And for you try to tell me I was wrong. I knew there was a lot of things I didn’t understand, I knew that. I wasn’t ashamed or afraid to admit it, but nevertheless I didn’t think the average person didn’t know any more about it that I did. And I did believe that the Bible was right. And I was classified, just like this man down here to ____, Jerry Owens, a walking bible. Now that’s the way I was classified long before I seen any vision. And here on morning I told you all about it so many times. Here one morning after I done get put out of church. Now you know that hurt bishop. Sure it hurt. I just, I just felt so bad. Look I mean, I really cried tears run down my cheeks. And if ever was a man serious about it I can testify to my own seriousness just like you can to yours. And here when God showed me the vision and revelation, when I saw the vision I didn’t understand it. And then when He revealed it to me the meaning of it, then I understood. That’s why I had you to read Daniel last… Then listen, it just tore up that carnal mind, everything I had in my mind was wrong. now look I had to go back, stand before the world and admit that I was wrong about it. Now you know if I had to do that you know I’m no respecter of.., I had to admit it. I had to confess it. Now you can stand around baptizing in water. Look I baptized a whole lotta folks. You got nothing on me. I mean I baptized ‘em myself. I was the man doing the baptizing. Now here you are setting out here you’d thought I baptized. You get the point? And I had to go back and tell them people different. And the very people that I tried to tell that I was wrong about it and people say, you’re still wrong. We’ll, now we’ve had people to come, this is just a plain bed sheet. I bet you don’t know nobody else got a bed sheet 35 years old laying around the house like that. Have you? (DR. KINLEY AND STUDENT BODY LAUGH) And that thing was just hanging around for many, many years before I even thought about how that the sheet was let down at Cornelius’ house. I never even gave it a thought. Read it too, but I don’t mean to say that there is anything so miraculous about that but you know it’s just coincidental that a bed sheet lasts that long. And as much wear and tear, this thing here, much wear and tear as it has as many times as Dr. Gross has patched it, all most every time somebody gets up here with a pointer they knock a hole in it. But he manages to patch it up some kind of way. Got some holes in it now. But the thing I wanna get over to you is, now I have portrayed on these charts, I portrayed on them what the Lord showed me in a vision. And nobody from nowhere has ever been able to dispute it. And I have been from coast to coast. And I’ve met some of the smartest men in the world. Here’s a book. Give me that book back. Now we sent a letter to Pope John the 23rd and to the heads of Christendoom. This book along with its publisher was at the International Council of Churches that met in New Delhi, India. And they went right down by this book. This book here. And they admitted that they was wrong. And that they had to go back home and study water baptism, foot washings, Lord Suppers. And they said they had been walking in darkness, and they had lead the people wrong. Now I’ve said that, too. Now if you want some proof for that, I’ll bring some proof next week, I’ll bring the newspaper clipping. And I can produce one, at least one witness that heard the man that was at the Ecumenical Council and said that book was used. Didn’t he say that Bishop Short?

Bishop Short: He sure did. He surely did.

Dr. Kinley: But they didn’t call him in. Now you see a little Baptist or some sect will run up here in this school then and try and hold out and try and tell me that I’m wrong about something and he don’t really realize that the heads of his organization have admitted that they’re wrong. And that book was at the Ecumenical Council too. And everything that happened at the Ecumenical Council they’ve taken into account and, and have admitted they was wrong. You’re in some school. This is real. This is genuine. You talking about United Nations Court, World League and all that kinda thing. You in it in this school. Yes indeed. Now before I, I want you to find in this book. I even read it. Read it and said let Dr. Harris read it. I want the, you just read it. Read that paragraph that where she raved about it. Would You? I want to show you that when I tell you something, it’s right. Then when he gets through with that I want to show you how impossible it is and why it’s impossible to draw this thing out like it out to be. All right, read.

Dr. Harris: Similarly with the six preceding created days. They started out indistinctly but ended up with full light as to what had been purposed and accomplished each day. Since the fourth commandment about the weekly Sabbath Day is based upon the created week as a pattern and since the days of the week marked out by the fourth commandment are all equal. It argues that each of the days of the created week were likewise equal in length. That is 7000 years. Since the period described in Genesis 1:1 and 2 preceded the created week this according to God’s will allows that period of original creation to be indefinite in length much longer than the entire 49,000 years, 7 x 7000 years of the created week. The created week itself began about 46025 B.C. according to the Bible’s time table.

Dr. Kinley: Now what book are you reading out of, where that goes?

Dr. Harris: Book, called, it’s called ‘New Heaven and a New Earth’, publishers: Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society Inc. International Bible Students Association Book of Now York, USA. That’s it.

Dr. Kinley: Are you satisfied?

Student Body: Yeah.

Dr. Kinley: Is it there?

Student Body: Yeah.

Dr. Kinley: Now what did I bring that up for? Alright, now, just like they made a mistake there about that, they messed this up too. This prophetic interval. And they’re not the only ones that messed it up. The Seven Day Adventists messed it up and it’s pretty bad. And they’re dogmatically contending they are right. Well now my job is I have to prove it. I have to prove anytime I say something’s wrong, its just, I have to prove it. I don’t wanna argue with, I’m like the archangel was about Satan arguing about where the body of Moses was buried. Michael just said, instead of arguing a great long drawn out argument he said, ‘the Lord rebuke you’. I don’t want to argue about these things. We got to put forth positive proof. Now let me show it and I’ll get down to business. Now let me show you why I said ____ these charts, it’s impossible to draw. And you have to take all these things into account and consideration when somebody is on the floor teaching. Now you see this veil, the first veil here or the door up here in the temple. And then here’s another veil. Now this comes into the Holy Place and this is the Most Holy Place and then here’s a veil here. You see how those veils are arched there. See how they’re arched. Well, now you don’t see that in here. And you just see a little thing. In here it ain’t even as good even as it is in here. Cause this is something I direct in here. And I don’t know enough about art, couldn’t draw it myself in the first place. The other fella he tried to draw it like I tell him. And that’s the best he could do with it at that time. But since then we learned a little more about how to draw things. So we made a little improvements, but it still means the same thing though. Get it? Now look, look folks. Now you see how that veil’s in there? This is the same thing here. This is the veil here. Here’s a veil here. Here’s a veil there. This is called a door or an entrance. And this is an entrance into the Most Holy Place. This is entrance into the Holy Place. Now here down here you got a gate. Now you know Messiah said enter in at the straight gate. So this is what he’s talking about. Now you reading that in the Bible don’t mean you know what the straight gate is. Nobody didn’t say you couldn’t read a Bible. Now then this first veil here is the, is the door or the entrance. See how that’s divided, forms a door. Then you’ve got the vessels of the sanctuary in there? Now God told Moses how to build this and how to make everything in it. He explained it to him. Now I can’t set this lamp on this side or move this table over here. I have to leave ‘em right where He said put them. I even have to face that tabernacle facing the east. Now if you notice the veils in here on this, now then in here you just got something that comes around the side here, nondescriptive. You got a veil in here, you got the veils in here. And on those long veils, each one of them what the veil meant there. Now you have in your Bible the first, dividing, the first and the second heaven. That veil that’s what that is. This one’s up here in the sanctuary which is all a part of this tabernacle which is all a part of this tabernacle here that everybody can see. You got the Court Round About, then you have these two vessels out here in the Outer Court, brazen altar and brazen laver. I have to set this all right where God said to set them. I can’t change them.

Now if somebody that don’t know they want to come around and tell me thus and so forth and so on. I know you don’t know, instead of you setting down and letting somebody tell you, you up here wasting a lot of time, running your mouth and all, when you don’t know what you’re talking about? And nobody on earth can do without it, you must come back and take this, this vision. So then I have to set this blood, this altar here and I have to set this water in the laver. And I have to set the Red Sea in here, and the water here. Blood and the water. Blood and the water. The blood and the water. Blood and the water, The blood and the water. The blood and the water. The blood and the water. Do you understand? The blood and the water. The blood and the water. I can’t never miss it. And anytime I get out of harmony with that, I’m just wrong. And each one. Now this Red Sea forms this veil through here and you don’t even see the veil in there. I just said this is the door. The veil is the door. So then, now then the River Jordan here forms this veil, and that’s an entrance in there. Now what you’ve done is you’ve put them right together. You’ve put it together, it don’t make no difference what you’re dealing with. The atom, the man, the Godhead, anything in nature, and anything in heaven, anything in Earth. You have to use this God given pattern. Why? Because it is Him transfigured or transformed. That’s Him himself. Get the point? That’s the reason why it’s wrote, up here, ‘Elohim or God the Archetypical or the Original Pattern of the Universe.’ And everything in the Universe the universe itself. There isn’t anything. Nothing. And when I say nothing I mean nothing. I don’t mean all but, I mean everything. And we put that against everything. Now that function and that operation is what makes up the history of the world. And it can never digress or deviate at anytime. It can not do that, because if it did then God would be running just like something out of balance with it. That’s the reason why we can declare the end from the beginning. The end is just like the beginning. And what makes up the history of the world is its constant function. Now that’s what I have appeared here. Is showing you, up here. I put it beside the Godhead itself. I put it beside attributes. And I showed you what each veil meant, the dividing of the waters above and the water beneath. And I showed you in your Bible how it come down in the first chapter of Genesis. Now look folks, God was not six days in creating the heaven and earth. He was not 42,000 years in creating the heaven and the earth. Now it would look like that I’ve make a mistake, but I didn’t. And somebody said, ‘well, how long was He in creating everything there, and how old is the heaven and earth?’ Science say four 1/2 billion.

Student Body: Right.

Dr. Kinley: Here not too long ago, they say 4 billion. And now they say they don’t say that definite. They say it’s approximately 4 1/2 billion. That’s wrong. Why? How can you say that? Because the heaven and earth was not created in the realm of time. That’s why I can say that. The Bible doesn’t teach that it was. Well then somebody says that dean, assistant dean says to me, ‘well, than what does mean over here then in the 20th chapter of Exodus. Remember the Sabbath day keep it holy for in 6 days God created the heaven and earth’. Now it look like I’m in direct contradiction doesn’t it? Oh come on admit it. Then when we come down through these days here that you got in the first part of the Genesis in all. where Moses looked at the vision and said the evening and the morning were the first day, evening and the morning were the second day, so forth and so on. Get it? And then, here David in the Psalms 90 and 4 says one day with the Lord, Elohim is as a thousand years when it is passed as a watch in the night. Peter said one day, II Peter 3:8, one day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day. Then you come back here and you say each one of these days is created, created days is a thousand years long. Now when you get right down to business with it. Now here’s Moses up here in the mountain and here’s where they all miss the boat. Moses is seeing a vision. And the clouds hanging over the mountain six days just like you walking around six days now. And each one of these days by the sun rising and setting Moses was seeing a vision and that’s fourteen hundred and ninety years before the birth of the Messiah. See the point? This is the Lord that he’s seeing in the vision. Now it’s just what we might call or describe as a re-run. Now there is something else deep there that I don’t hardly ever tell a person. Now if you take your Bible and star to reading in your Bible and you say in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and the earth was without form and darkness was on the face of the deep and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters and God said, ‘let there be light’. God said, ‘let there be light’. And there was light. And the evening and the morning was the first day. Ain’t that the way it reads? Now when God created the heaven and the earth He didn’t say that. Now that looks like I disputed the Bible again. And you turn, you don’t understand, you turn around it, it did it, it… ‘don’t it say.’ You got your finger right on it. And now I’m saying I don’t have no way to get to you. And you won’t hold still long enough for me to tell you nothing. Now when God created the heaven and earth, listen Williams, in the realm of eternity, not in time, because it takes the sun, moon and stars and, and all of those things, they were put there for seasons and for years, you get that? Get that? And for your information they still operate for the purpose for which He put them there. Sun, the moon, and the stars. Tell you what we’re going to find out about that. We’ve shooting some rockets up there, we’re gonna land in 1970. Now you just be careful that moon don’t land on you. Because God said he’d roll ‘em together as a scroll. Now here they come in here in the realm of Eternity and they’re going to go back out there in the realm of eternity. You get the point? And we are right down close to the time. Now let me get back and clear up this expression. I said it didn’t say that. Now look Roger, there wasn’t anybody for God to say anything at all to, unless you wanna say He was talking to Himself. How do you feel Doc?

Dr. Gross: Okay.

Dr. Kinley: All right. Now He just willed the thing to be within Himself.

Student Body: Right, Right.

Dr. Kinley: And when He willed it to be that way in the original creation, it just was the way He willed it to be. Get it? Well now proof put forward. Now here is Moses up in the mountain. He’s seeing the vision. Seeing the re-run of it. Listen, and God is narrating it, and Moses is listening at Him narrating. You see the point? It’s just like Cecile B. Demille made a moving picture of the Ten Commandments years and years ago. It’s what they call a silent picture. And they’d flash the reading on the screen. And he took a notion that he wanted to make the Ten Commandments in a sound picture before he died and he made this last ten commandments. And you could just set there in your seat and see the picture. Whoever it was I think it was, I know the name of the fella, I can’t call it that narrated and played the part of Moses and them. Narrated.

Student Body: Charlton Heston

Dr. Kinley: Charlton Heston and others narrated. Now here is what God did before there was anything that He willed it. Now here’s Moses up here in the mountain seeing what took place and here is God narrating it to him. Said in the beginning God said that’s what Moses tell you in the beginning, God said let there be light and the evening and the morn. He’s telling you what all God said cause it is God narrating what he’s seeing in the vision. Now if you could just learn that much tonight. Get the Point? Now that was in the realm of eternity. Now listen. Now when you get down here it’s pointing out here, now for remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy for in six days God created the heaven and earth. Now let me explain that. Now, the sun is rising and setting just like you from Monday in this week. I’m trying to fix it so you can understand. In this Monday in this week and you go through to Sunday, the next Sunday. That would constitute a week, wouldn’t it? And this week. Now then that’s how Moses was long afterwards fourteen hundred and ninety years before the birth of the Messiah. He’s running that thing over, back over. Sun is already created and it’s rising and setting.


…rising and setting way even before Moses or any of them. And now He’s got him up here in Mount and God has, is showing him the vision of what He did to bring everything into existence. And He Himself is narrating it and Moses is listening at the narration and looking at the vision and writing what He saying down and telling you what He said in his narration, See how easy it is? And that cloud hung over that mountain six days by the time, Those are the six days that it took him to see the vision of the creation, Those are the six days that he means, for in six says while Moses was in that state and then He re-runned it up there in the mount, six days and Moses, his innerself is in the realm of eternity with God and not in the realm of time, because official time keepers is the sun and moon. They’re there for the seasons and years, Now am I lying?

Student Body: No sir.

Dr. Kinley: If you think I am I’ll read. You see the point? Well, all these deep esoteric things. Science and theologians, they haven’t, they haven’t got it figured out. Now that’s what he means when he says, for in six days. It took Him six days to run that off. In, that took place in the realm of eternity. And Moses sees the vision and He narrated. And tell you what went on each one of them days. And each one of them days that that sun hung over there, each one of those days it is God Himself putting time in the realm of eternity,

Student Body: right, yea, yuh.

Dr. Kinley: not eternity in the realm of time. You turn it around the other way. Cause all. Listen, here’s where Jehovah’s Witnesses made their mistake. Here’s where science made theirs. Everything that happened, it happened in the realm of eternity or eternity or the day. The day and eternity. Now that’s what you got down here in the second chapter of Genesis.

Student Body: 2nd and 4

Dr. Kinley: Somebody read it, please.

Reader: These are the origins of the heaven

Dr. Kinley: These are the origins of the heaven and the earth

Reader: When they were created

Dr. Kinley: When they were created

Reader: in the day

Dr. Kinley: in the day or in the eternity, in the day that never had, don’t have no end, don’t have no beginning or in the realm… Isaiah 57:15 says God inhabiteth eternity. The word eternal and eternity it means without any starting point or any ending. Now Jehovah’s Witnesses, they got themselves a starting point. ____ the day there. Now then what they have did, was they have multiplied these days as one thousand years when they got ‘em back here in this the day or in the realm. They didn’t realize that they was in the realm of eternity. So each one of the day that you got down there he’s saying is seven thousand years long and multiplied it by seven which got it seven times seven is forty nine including the Sabbath. Forty-nine thousand years. Forty nine thousand years. Listen. Forty nine thousand years that God was in creating the heaven and earth. Well, listen, don’t you see, don’t you understand that if God was gonna create something in a day who’s gonna create the day for him to create something in? answer me. See how we get our mouth shut. Once somebody said, ‘well, now listen, you don’t know whether that’s so or not.’ Well let me see what I do, I go back over here. I test that. I go back over here. He said the earth was surrounded by water. That’s what Moses said there in the first chapter of Genesis. Now when I get ready to find out, I go in the 24th chapter of Exodus, the 9th 10th and 16th verse.. Now listen Dr. Gross has written a book and helped me write in that book. Now, look. Listen. I said that the Genesis, or let’s put it this way. I said that the Exodus was before the Genesis. Somebody run up and grab up a dictionary and say, Genesis means origin or beginning.

Now I can’t tell ‘em no different. It does mean that. And he thinks that where he’s starting to read the Bible in the first chapter of Genesis, he thinks he’s starting at the origin or the beginning. And then here I am, I am telling’ no, the Exodus was before the Genesis. And he’s saying, ‘what kind of an idiot are you anyhow?’ And he’s just amazed beyond even expression. Now here’s what I’m telling you Bishop. Now you just have to agree with me. I’m saying that the children of Israel which is expressed in the book of Exodus. Exodus means going out. I’ve said that they went out of Egypt and through the Red Sea before they came in to the wilderness of Sinai where Mount Sinai was and saw the vision. I’ve said that they departed out of Egypt come out of Egypt as is expressed in the Exodus or Exodus means coming out. They come out of there before they ran around the mountain. So Exodus is just got to be before the Genesis. It’s got it be. Right Freddie?

Fred Allen Jr.: Right.

Dr. Kinley: But you find nobody out there in Christiandoom that would just say that ____ and drawing all kinds of dictionaries on you and swear by all that’s holy. Now if you look at the 24th and 9th and 10th verse I said and the cloud, Exodus I’m talking about, and said the cloud covered the top of the mountain six days. That’s in Exodus not Genesis and Moses is telling you what he saw in the vision up in that cloud, after he come out of Egypt, seeing the vision he said he knew…’ Now when he got ready to compile that book he put that in the first part of the book of Genesis. Then somebody they, they didn’t know they thought that was the beginning of creation. That’s not. He said that Genesis 1:1, said in the beginning God created the heaven and earth. And that’s where these people Jehovah’s Witness and all rest of them is arguing on. Now Dr. Gross and I, we’ve looked for 35 long years trying to find somebody that understood something about this vision, in the libraries every which way, all over the world. We ain’t found nobody yet. You found anybody?

Dr. Gross: No

Dr. Kinley: You know, I’ve seen you since you last looked.

Dr. Gross: That’s right.

Dr. Kinley: Have you seen anybody that said they saw somebody that said they seen somebody?

Dr. Gross: No, I didn’t.

Dr. Kinley: Now you see, you see what it’s up against? But now a child can sit there and when you understand it it’s just as plain and simple as the nose on your face. Now that cloud expressed there in Exodus, reading down through the verses and all. ‘Well I wouldn’t accept that; show you how dogmatic I am. I wouldn’t accept that. I could say, well, the book of Genesis is a figment of imagination, and played the part of an atheist if I wanted to. You couldn’t stop me, unless you understood the story.’ That’s what has created so many so called atheists is because they don’t understand it, and it just don’t make sense. Get the point? And out of that you get all the divisions. You see the Point? Now I said I wouldn’t accept it. Now that’s me doing this talking, this time. Unless it could be proven and verified, I won’t buy it at all. So then I have to go to John on the Isle of Patmos. Now I’ve got the first and the last books. And I’ve got to draw them together and everything that’s in this Bible from Genesis to Revelation. Everything. History and all, has got to fall in that group by that Pattern. And any translator makes a mistake, I got you dead by the neck. I got you dead. Dead to the right. You want me show you some discrepancies? Take the 9th chapter of Hebrews where we’re talking about the pattern. And take the 25th chapter of Exodus. The 9th chapter of Hebrew and the 1st and 2nd verse.

Reader: Then verily the first covenant..

Dr. Kinley: Then verily the first covenant… Now look, this is the 1st covenant with Israel back here. The first one, not with Noah, not with Abraham. Then verily the first covenant…

Reader: had also ordinances of service

Dr. Kinley: had orders of service

Reader: and a worldly sanctuary

Dr. Kinley: and a worldly sanctuary

Reader: for in the first compartment in

Dr. Kinley: for in the first compartment

Reader: of the tabernacle

Dr. Kinley: of the tabernacle

Reader: were the candlesticks

Dr. Kinley: Now listen, now here’s what she’s talking, here’s what she’s reading about. I’m looking right at it. Get the point? Now here’s what she’s reading about. In the first compartment. That means that you go in this door here this first compartment in the tabernacle. Now you said that verily there was, the first covenant there was a tabernacle made. Now please bear in mind that these Hebrews or Israelites are Jews not Gentiles. Alright, read on.

Reader: for in the first compartment of the tabernacle

Dr. Kinley: for in the first compartment of the tabernacle

Reader: were the candlesticks

Dr. Kinley: were the candlesticks. There it is

Reader: the table

Dr. Kinley: the table

Reader: and the shewbread

Dr. Kinley: and the shewbread

Reader: which is called the Holy place

Dr. Kinley: which is called the Holy Place

Reader: and beyond the veil

Dr. Kinley: and beyond the veil, that’s beyond this veil here, that’s beyond that, takes you into the Most Holy Place. Read.

Reader: The second compartment of the tabernacle

Dr. Kinley: that second compartment

Reader: which is called the Holy of Holies

Dr. Kinley: which is called the Holy of Holies

Reader: which had the golden censor

Dr. Kinley: which had the golden censor. The censor that Aaron carried in his hand. He did right here. Which had the censor. Read.

Reader: and the ark of the covenant

Dr. Kinley: and the ark of the covenant

Reader: overlaid round about with gold

Dr. Kinley: and the Ark of the covenant. Here’s the ark of the covenant. Alright Read.

Reader: Wherein was the golden pot that had manna

Dr. Kinley: Wherein was the golden pot that had the manna

Reader: and Aaron


Dr. Kinley: Now you get the 25th chapter of Exodus. And you read it there the 25th chapter that it was in there. And I mean it had to sit right where I set it. You see how particular it was. Then I had to go on through the veil and into the Most Holy Place. This is a better picture of it here. This is within.., here’s the veil here. Now look. Look up here folks. Everything that Messiah did when He was here in this world. Every little jot and every little tittle that He performed, He went right by that pattern. Now look how particular and picky I am about it. If you would walk up to this chart and look at it real good you would see that here’s Romans 8:25, 26, 27; Hebrews form this altar. Just draw it out to description and got it down here. And when you see the incense burning on the altar. Here I got him down there and the intercession going on in his mind. That’s putting it right in there. It showed that He was the intercessor. See how particular I was? Now you go over here and you find that Aaron burned that incense here. While he’s burning this incense, they was on the outside around here praying. And look, I even got to know what hour that is. Just that particular. Nine and three: Hour of Prayer. You just don’t run in and out there anytime. Now here is the Messiah. He’s out out there yonder in the garden making the intercession, just like Aaron the priest was in here. See how I had, see how particular I had to be. Now I want to tell you about one here. Now look I told you that nobody can draw these charts actually like they should be. Now you want to blame me when you see that, even them that wrote the script there in Hebrews. You wanna blame me now. They left it out. If you don’t think it belongs there where I put it at. You want to read it in Exodus over there if you do, you got your book. Get it. Now there’s a whole lotta arguments. You better wake up. About water baptism, mode, methods and what not. How are you Jimmy? He’s fine he said. Now look over here in I Tim. 2 and 5. Show you how you get tricked. Now I showed you about that, about that altar of incense. Does anybody got that verse in the 25th chapter of Exodus? About how they hang veil there and where the altar belongs. It’s up here but I don’t want to put the veils on it. It’s just too hard to see. But it is in the 25th chapter of Exodus. It tells you how, what’s there, what to put up there and all like that, and then hang up the veils.

Student Body: 23rd verse

Dr. Kinley: That whole 25th chapter is dedicated to the erection and structure of that tabernacle.

Student Body: That’s right. The 23rd verse.

Dr. Kinley: Well, read.

Reader: Thou shalt also make a table of shittim wood. Two cubits shall be the length thereof and…

Dr. Kinley: That’s the table of shewbread.

Reader: and a cubit the breath thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof. Thou shall overlay it with pure gold and…

Dr. Kinley: Overlay it with pure gold

Reader: And make there to a crown of gold round the bottom

Dr. Kinley: And make there to a crown of gold there about.

Reader: thou shall make unto it a border of a hands breath round about and thou shall make a golden crown for a border thereof round about.

Dr. Kinley: I’m after the altar of incense now. 

Reader: Altar of Incense

Dr. Kinley: Yes.

Reader: Yes, you get that in 28.

Dr. Kinley: I’m not gonna move. I ain’t gonna do nothing.

Reader: the 40th chapter and the 5th verse

Dr. Kinley: Well read it.

Reader: The 40th chapter of Exodus the 5th verse. And thou shalt make, set the altar of gold for the incense before the ark of the testimony and the hangings and the hangings of the door to the tabernacle.

Dr. Kinley: I ain’t, I ain’t gonna move till I get some satisfaction. So you might as well find it we gonna dismiss right on this number?

Reader: Thou shalt make an altar to burn incense upon of shittim wood shalt thou make. it. A cubit shall be the length there of and a cubit the breath there of. Foursquare shall it be. And 2 cubits shall be the height thereof. The horns there of shall be of the same. And thou shall overlay it with pure gold. The top there of and the sides thereof round about. And the horns thereof. Thou shall make unto it a crown of gold round about. And two golden rings shall thou make to it under the crown of it by the two corners thereof.

Dr. Kinley: Now I’m not trying to find out about the structure already. What I’m trying to find out where they put it at.

Reader: And thou shalt put it before the veil, that it is by the ark of the testimony.

Dr. Kinley: That it is by the ark of the Testimony. That’s right here.

Reader: before the Mercy seat.

Dr. Kinley: Then there is the veil. Understand? Now I’m just dogmatic and particular. Even with your breathing. With your breathing, within the confines of your mind. Everything. Tell you when a child is supposed to be born. When he’s supposed to die. Take it when those patriarchs are supposed to come in, when they’re supposed to die. You say, Adam lived 930 years and he died. Is that right?

Student Body: Right

Dr. Kinley: Then I’d ask you why. ‘You meddling in God’s business.’ Adam, Noah lived 950 years and he died. Get the point? Methuselah lived 969 years and he died. You have to tell me why they come in at that time and why they went out you, I don’t have no foolishness. Now if you were smart enough to catch it. I have already stated, there can’t, nobody tell you what the purpose of God is but God himself. Then if you’re wise enough to see it you ought to see that I’m telling you that unless God be in me I can’t tell you how all these things are. And last Friday night I felt like taking off through this building when that child set there and told me that. Here’s 35 years gone on over my head and you’re my witness, that I told you about earthquakes, people setting right looking me in the face, been healed of all kind of diseases. Listen you don’t know nobody. And you never seen nobody that said they saw somebody that have did the things that I have done. Get it? You got to resort to Messiah and the apostles themselves. Now if I tell you there’ll be an earthquake at a certain time. You can say, ‘well listen Jehovah’s Witness or Roman Catholics,’ or listen, man, don’t you get what I’m talking about? I don’t care nothing about that. Now if there’s an earthquake when I tell you Bishop and that’s in the future and it happens on the day and hour I said… Been doing that for 35 years, not just an earthquake but all the history of the world. And you’re too dumb, you too ignorant set right up there look at it and listen at it and read it in the paper and see it on the screen. Then turn around and too stupid and you can’t see what it is in here, cause I got this black mask on. You see the point? You don’t go by that, you know there’s black birds and red birds and all kinds of birds, and all kinds of colors out there. You don’t pay no attention to that. You got in the orthinological kingdom the same thing that you got in the anthropological. And the same fella made the black bird that made the red one, and the blue jay. Do you see the point? God is behind this whole universe operating. Now if I understand their function and their operation I can tell you any time I want to what’s in the future. Somebody say, ‘well, I don’t believe that, you know we teach over yonder so and so on.’ Just keep your seat and sit tight. That’s all you have to do and then if it don’t come just like I tell you, don’t come back here no more. Go somewhere else. Now just like the Seven Day Adventists. Now the Seven Day Adventist said, listen. They started up here in 457 B.C. And they said this 2300 days was a part of this. And so they, they looked for Christ to come back. They seen Him go, they read there in Acts of the Apostles about Him ascending on a cloud and they looked for to come Him in 1844. And when He didn’t come in 1844. And even got it up there in the congressional records. And they even showed it Him showed somebody in a freezer, refrigerator, sitting in there all drawed up. Criticizing it. Well, then the next thing you know the woman that wrote it and they was going around beating people to death, even went and made, do away with all, all their property and everything, furniture and everything. Just showing. You couldn’t tell ‘em nothing. Then when He didn’t show up in 1844, they got the attitude, ‘well we made a mistake.’ Well, the said, you just might as well admit it. And then after seen they were wrong, there was nothing else they could do but admit. Then look, they, this is what they done then. Now, let me show you what, I wanna show you what’s happened. You see, you see this, this sanctuary. See how the High Priest burned incense and light the golden candlestick at 3 o’clock in the afternoon and ____ the table of shewbread, the hour of prayer and what not. Well now they say that He was in here, when He ascended, He ascended in here in 1844. And they expect, they thought that He had come in here in 1844, into the Most Holy Place. I mean when He ascended, they thought He ascended into the Most Holy Place and that He would be coming back to earth. Are you following me? They thought when He ascended He went right on up in here and set down there on the throne. And that He would be coming back in the earth plane in 1844. Now when He didn’t come back from there. Then they changed the thing and said, ‘no, said He was here and He just entered in here in 1844.’ And they still got a bunch of clowns and idiots sitting out there reading it. Right today. That He was just entering in; in other words after they made their mistake and seen He didn’t come, then they still got a bunch of idiots setting up there thinking it. That there right now that He just entered in 1844 and you can’t tell no more now then before they made the mistake. They wouldn’t come here and sit down to class, no, no, they wanna come down here and tell, ‘listen to me for a minute?’ Why the hell don’t you go sit down. Get it. And the last mess they made is worse than the first. Because He’s entering in on to heaven itself, (there in the 8th chapter) and sit down at the right hand of God. So say all of the apostles. The right hand of God. Now they tell me He just went in there in 1844. Now that’s bad ain’t it? Alright, now here come some more of them clowns and them satanic spirits, now that’s bad wouldn’t you say that was bad? Now here come Jehovah’s Witnesses. Bold, stark, brave. They said the Seventh Day Adventists is wrong and we’re right. That Christ come, listen, that Christ come. The Seventh Day Adventists now they admitted that they expected Him to come and He didn’t come, and He was going when they thought He was coming. And so now He didn’t come. So they said He was just going when was mistaken about it. Now here come Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s stupid enough to say that He come in 1914. Doc would you mind getting that on the board for me; Dr. Harris. And they’re wrong too. You can’t tell ‘em nothing. Look, let me tell you something. Now wouldn’t it be bad, just wouldn’t it be bad for somebody that’s got the nerve. There wasn’t nobody else but the devil beating, have that much nerve to stand up in your face to tell you Christ come in 1914. And all this mess going on that’s going on in the world at the time 1914. And set up His kingdom in 1914, Listen, let me tell you something. Are you listening? You want one of them real genuine deep ones. He never come the first time and never left the second time. He’s always been here. This coming and going and up and down and running around exploring things. Its people that don’t understand it. When He set down there talking to Nicodemus, said, no man ascended up into heaven. Somebody said, ‘well Enoch was translated and he appeared up there. Elijah ascended.’ Look I can read a Bible. What’s a matter with you? In a chariot of fire. And the Messiah was born there, and out there and admitted. No man ascended up to heaven save the son of man, (read the third chapter of John and see if it ain’t there), save Son of Man. Now if you want to say that Enoch was translated and went on in heaven itself and Elijah went on into heaven and through his mantle back on to Elijah. And here the Messiah said, ‘I ain’t seen nothing of him.’ Seen no man. Read it. Read it out of the book.

Reader: There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. The same came to Yahshua by night and said unto Him, Rabbi, we know that thou are a teacher come from Elohim. But no man can do these miracles as thou doest except Elohim be with Him. Yahshua answered and said unto him. Verily, verily I say unto thee except a man be born from above he can not see the kingdom of Yahweh.

Dr. Kinley: You sitting out there, remember what I told you about a carnal mind. You see that’s what Jehovah’s Witness, the Seven Day Adventists and all the rest of those cliques got. Church of Christ, your church doc, and my church, Church of God. The Roman Catholics, carnal minds. There ain’t no way in the world to figure it out. They don’t understand this deep mysterious thing. They don’t know nothing about where heaven or hell is. You stand out here talking about transubstantiation. Say, ‘Jesus said for us to do this.’ Now that’s not even in the almanac. Is it Bishop?

Bishop Short: Um, Um.

Dr. Kinley: Somebody said, ‘what you doing there?’ Said, ‘washing feet.’ ‘Well who said so.’ ‘Well Jesus.’ ‘Where you find that?’ ‘Thirteenth chapter of St. John. ‘Ain’t none of that in no almanac. Read around in the Bible said Jesus said. I never got so sick and tired about Jesus said in my life. Every time you see anybody they talking about what Jesus said. Yes sir, sick and tired of it. And then you jump right up and you got Paul disputing with Jesus. You got there in the 7th chapter of Matthew in what you call the beatitudes. That’s what you read where Jesus said, judge not for fear you may be judged. ‘You know Jesus said that.’ And then you turn right over there in the 6th chapter of I Corinthians, Paul said, ‘dare any of you had a matter against another take him before the law of the unjust and not before the saints. Don’t you know the saints shall judge the world.’ You get the point? Then he said there in the 2nd chapter of I Corinthians, said, ‘he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.’ ‘I’m spiritual, so I won’t wash feet, I’m spiritual, I won’t eat no Lord Suppers.’ ‘Why?’ ‘I’m fasting.’ He told them when they was trying to cast out the devil, said, when He come down off the mount, and He had sent them out, and they been out there casting out devils and now they come on back. And they said just as Moses and them found them down there worshipping this golden calf. Well He’s got to fulfill. When He come down the mountain there they were down there, they been having a fit down there. And they been working with Him. And so now they didn’t have no effect with that one. So they wanted to know now why couldn’t we do this. He said this power come by fasting and prayer. While He was with them under the law, they ate, ate all them pass…, all them feasts they was eating. They ate the feast of the passover every year. Just eating and all. Eating down without washing their hands. And then here it is comes up come the elders, say, ‘what you eat.’ Say, ‘look here, would you tell me why it is that your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders, they’re eating without washing their hands.’ He said, ‘well, I got one for you. Why does your elders transgress the commandments of God by their traditions? Answer me that.’ Now when you wash, there’s washing under the law. There was eating bread under the law and keeping them feasts. Well, now here He is with them, He’s the one that’s smitten ‘em with the disease, but they didn’t recognize it. They wasn’t gonna catch no disease that He couldn’t. That’s what He’s doing. Healing the folks. They wasn’t gonna pick, contract no bacterial contamination by some of them diseases and affliction by not washing their hands. Wasn’t scared. Why? Because they got the Healer right with them. But now, He’s healing everybody else of all their afflictions and everything that Yahweh had afflicted ‘em with because of their disobedience. And He’s walking around, the Healer’s walking right around here and they come to Him, it was proved to them that He was Yahweh in a physical body. That’s why He healed them all kinds of things. Healed everybody of all kinds of diseases. And bacterial contamination by not washing, didn’t mean a thing to Him. And there’s His disciples out there just eating, they don’t have to worry about catching no diseases. And all the feasts and all, they just attending them and just eating. But He was the bread come down. Now this power comes by fasting and prayer. Now we’re eating none of the carnal ordinances. We’re not under the law. We’re fasting, abstaining from all of them things, the natural, and we’re in the spiritual now. In other words we’re fasting. Now here’s some idiot out there celebrating them things. Bible said that Jesus said, just asleep and blind as he can be, don’t realize that all them things are fulfilled and nailed to the cross. Somebody setting up somewhere. ‘What are you doing setting like that, doc.’ I got a little message today from a fella who called me on the phone and told me about some fella who’s been around the place. Now he’s keeping the Sabbath day. He can’t get a job there. So he’s sitting up there keeping the Sabbath Day. Well say, listen, didn’t you know that people in Los Angeles that work five days a week in the first place and because they don’t work on… Dr. Harris don’t work on Saturday, do you?

Dr. Harris: No.

Dr. Kinley: Are you keeping the sabbath?

Dr. Harris: No.

Dr. Kinley: Sitting up there. Now here’s the Messiah laying out there in Joseph’s new tomb. As it is, sun went down on a Friday. Saturday is the Sabbath. And there He is laying out there in Joseph’s new tomb, never winked an eye, never batted a, never even breathed. You talk about temporary suspended animation. He’s got that bested: He never even breathed, no pulse, no nothing else, and besides that, a big hole punched in His side, and nail prints in His feet, never budged or nothing. Now you talk about resting. There He is laid to rest. Wasn’t He? He ain’t moving in there. And very early in the morning as it begin to dawn toward the first day of the week. None of the folks never believed that. They didn’t see it going out of style there. And you haven’t had no Sabbath yet. It’s just a shadow of that which is to come. When we get through these, these years. And look let me tell you about this one. Are you ready? You ready Wallace? Real sure you’re ready. Now here you got God create the man on the sixth day. Breathed in his nostrils the breath of life. Then He caused him to take a deep sleep. And then he took that deep sleep there, same thing right here, same thing in the tomb. As the sun went down and there He lay, Adam, under that deep tranquilizer. You talk about a tranquilizer, under the influence of the Spirit. Here you got it right here. He’s immersed, talking about water baptism. ____ ____ ____ . He was totally consummated. ____ ____ ____. He hasn’t committed no sin. He took that woman and then that, He’s going right toward the Sabbath Day. Now in the morning. I told you there was two operations on that day. Now the next day it’s a Sabbath. I’m showing you here, 6th day here. Now this another operation on that 6th day. Now this is that double operation there on the 6th day. And a double operation here on the 3rd day. Now watch, I told you, I got another one. Now took that rib and that womb and made, that formed that woman and there he was, Adam with that ____. Now when Messiah …


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