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15) JULY 26, 1969, 2 – 4:30 PM 69 CONVENTION




by Dr. Henry Clifford Kinley


July 26, 1969:  2 – 4:30 PM 69 Convention

Los Angeles Hilton

Los Angeles, California


The 1969 IDMR Convention was from Saturday, July 19 to Sunday, July 27, 1969.  There were a total of 15 spiritual sessions, 9 of which Dr. Kinley spoke.

This transcript is one of those sessions.


recorded on reel recorder by Fred Allen Jr.

transferred to 2 90 minute audio cassettes

by Beverly Allen and also by Irene Giragosian


transcribed by Cathy Fenti and Jacqueline Bowers

proofread by Geraldine Rothstein, Michael Rothstein, and Mary Gross

approved by the International Public Relations Committee – April 1995

NOTE:  This transcript is from a combination of 2 recordings of this lecture.  One recording was clear and the other wasn’t; however the unclear recording had some statements that the clear one did not.  A combined tape therefore was made with overlaps of the lecture to show that nothing was left out of the recording.  These overlaps however were only transcribed once. 


1.  … indicates that Dr. Kinley ended a word or a sentence without verbally completing it.

2.  Audience comments are included only if more than one person responded or if Dr. Kinley was speaking directly to a specific person.

3.  Unless emphasized by Dr. Kinley pause words have been left out of the transcript for the sake of ease in readability and comprehension (ah, uh, see, you see, you see what I mean, isn’t that right, understand, you understand, do you understand.)

4.  ___ indicates an inaudible word or syllable

5.  WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS are comments of the transcriber


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Moderator:  … we will be addressed by our founder and dean, Dr. Henry C. Kinley.

Dr. Kinley:  Thank you ever so much.  I just want to speak a few words at this time that those of you that are new in this audience and those of you that have been with me through years and I think it is my indispensable duty at this time to do just exactly what I’m to do, that I have not done before since any of you have been knowing me.  I’ve always told you, as you read the biography which there were some things in it that wasn’t just exactly as they ought to be.  Now I don’t have anybody to blame for that but myself cause what they understood about it, why then they put it down and brought it up to me and asked me, quite some time ago, to make any necessary corrections before they made any public announcement, so then that puts the fault and the blame back on me for any of the discrepancies that was in it. 

     Now, what I want to tell you at this time, that was the biography of Henry C. Kinley.  It was said that that is my name.  And you identified my mother and my father, place of birth and so forth and so on, and even the date and year of my birth.  And all through these years, even to my own sisters and brothers and children, I do have some children in this audience that bears that name, Kinley, K I N L E Y.  And I am known every which a way by Henry Clifford Kinley.  I do not wish to deceive or fool anybody.  That is my earthly name that you know me about, know of me, but the truth about it is, that’s really not my name.

Student Body:  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  That is not my name.  It is my name as you know my name to be -earthly name.  Now Yahweh said and it’s, it’s also in the 2nd chapter of Galatians and the 17th verse, that something about, something about that name.  So this will get it, I have never attempted to point out at anything to you other than what I had verification in the Book and I don’t want anybody to know me, know any more of me than what they see me to be.  And I have never been an individual that wanted to get up before the public and no fanfare, and they tried as they told you in my biography, and want to be noticed, outstanding, nothing like that, I have never did that, not in my life.  And I think I had better straighten that out here and now.  If you noticed Yahshua the Messiah, He said He come in His Father’s name.  And since He did come in His Father’s name, they haven’t been using that at all, Christendom just simply hasn’t been using it, anymore so than you have yet actually been using my right name in all these many years.  And Yahshua the Messiah told His disciples, which you could call apostles who were eyewitnesses, to go and teach all nations, but to go in His name.  That’s what He said to do.  Is that right? 

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  He told Peter, and James and John and all the rest of ‘em, (get what I’m fixing to say) He said, `I come in my Father’s name, now you go in my name.’  Do you understand that?  Well, I have come in His name.  I have said many times to you that it was Yahshua the Messiah that speaks through this body.  I’m sure a lot of you didn’t understand me.  And since we are having a convention, and I been thinking about it ever since I’ve been here and long before I came and for many years…  And you’ve also heard this remark, many, many times, there can’t, no one in this world, tell you anything about Yahweh and His eternal purpose but Yahweh Himself.

Student Body:  Right.  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  And I doubt seriously whether some of you folks caught that.  But some of these things I think we ought to clear up.  And I can’t sleep, I can’t rest and haven’t for around 38 years.  I do not sleep, now those of you that know me,

Student Body:  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  I do not sleep as you do.

Student Body:  Right.  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  I do not eat as you do, I do not think as you think. 

Student Body:  Right.  That’s a fact.

Dr. Kinley:  I do not talk as you talk.

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  I told you in a meeting, that here.., I believe it was yesterday, that there was 9 different gifts, 9 planets, 9 systems in the human body.  Now let me repeat that again, I said 9 gifts and I just want to stop and point out just one of ‘em:  and that was the gift of discernment.  Now since I have been with you through many years and I have spoke, I’ve never tried to preach nothing in, in the name of Henry C. Kinley.  I’ve always told you, I didn’t even want to hear that fella myself, but now since we have made this work and put it all around these walls for your investigation, and it takes in everything, let me say.., let me talk like you ordinarily have talked all of your life, call the school a Metaphysical Research.  Meta means beyond, beyond the physical and physical means where you are.  Now what we have done and what we are doing that does concern each and everybody, there is nobody here and never has been and never will be, is to make you conscious of the fact, that as long as you have been going around and what you know about this school from its earliest inception up unto the present time and there are many witnesses, you ought to by that gift, one gift in particular, you ought to be able to discern by this time what it is that is speaking through this body that you see here. 

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  Now in the first place it does not belong to me or you or what not.  Someone said to me, `been able to discern that?’  And consequently you don’t even know what’s going on in your own body.  There have been many things that I could not say to you through the years and I know that the carnal mind is subject to think many things.  You’ve heard me say before, many times, I know what you think.  Now somebody will say right away, `I bet you don’t know what I’m thinking.’  (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS)  Well for your information, we have quite a few people in the school that thought just like it,

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  but they’re convinced.

Student Body:  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  Now some time ago we used to have what we call a question and answer meeting, where you were permitted to ask any question you wanted to ask, but we don’t do that so much anymore, for this reason:  people out in the audience think of that which you want to know, I will pick it up and answer your question, you won’t have to be bothered with asking.  You don’t have to ask nobody else around about it.  Now that’s just one of the reasons why we have cut out some of it.  We know that there is skeptics, atheists, and agnostics, and infidels, liars, backbiters, hypocrites, and just everything, we realize that.  And you wouldn’t think any different in them, of me, than you would of anybody else and why should you.  The first thing you’d do is in your category, correlation.  If I said that I was the Messiah, first thing you’d do, you’d say, `well, you know over here in the 24th chapter of Matthew, many of `em…’  Messiah said Himself, many would say that they would come in His name, now there’s one of `em.  And anything you say, just anything you can think of and imagine, there’s some of that that’s in that Book; in other words if I say, that I’m come in Yahshua’s name as I was told to do, somebody else all around said me too.  You see what I mean?  There is so many me too’s until you will have to discern, which one is me. 

Student Body:  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  Now for your information, Yahshua the Messiah, the real one, that was prophesied to come, I’d have you know that there was.., He was the 17th in line and when He did appear, even those that knew something about it, they was even afraid to admit that that was…  Now somebody will say, `well, where do you find something like that in the Bible?’  Well, didn’t Nicodemus, one of the Sanhedrin Council that believed on Him by night.  Somebody said, `well you mean to tell me if it was dark outdoors,’ that’s what the situation was.  `It don’t mean nothing about the time he went to Him, whether it’s light of the day or night.’  He still went to Him by night. 

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  And he said to Him, said, `Master, we know you are a teacher come,’ you got God in your Book, `from Yahweh, we know that.’  `Well how do you know?’  And we, who are you talking about?  Now that Sanhedrin Council was composed of 70.  And all 70 of `em up there knew about Him, that He was a teacher that was sent by Yahweh.  And he just give it away, said, `we know you are.’  `Well how do you know that?’  You better, you have these things in your Book.  Nicodemus said, `no man can do the miracles which you do, unless Yahweh be with him, now that’s how we know it.’  Understand?  But they could not confess Him even though they did know Him for fear of the Jews.  And that knowledge, that they are saying that they knew, they only knew in part.., because the scriptures said, they wouldn’t know the time of their visitation. 

Student Body:  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  And they missed Him, missed the Messiah.  Everything in that Book has to be fulfilled, can’t be anything left out of it.  Now this name.  Let me, let me get after that for a minute or two, I do not wish to continue to stand here and give you a, a long drawn out lecture, that’s not the way the programs set up, but I had to interrupt it.  Revelation 2:17.

Reader:  He that hath an ear, let him hear

Dr. Kinley:  He that hath an ear.  Now some people don’t have no ears.  And some don’t have no eyes, blind and can’t see.  And I’m not talking about these things, but he that hath an ear.

Reader:  let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches

Dr. Kinley:  Let him hear what the spirit said to the church.  Read.

Reader:  To him that overcometh

Dr. Kinley:  to him that overcometh

Reader:  will I give to eat

Dr. Kinley:  will I give to eat

Reader:  of the hidden manna,

Dr. Kinley:  of the hidden manna.  Now if I can’t find it, it’s because it’s hidden.  You didn’t have no problem up there at the banquet did you? 

Student Body:  No.

Dr. Kinley:  See what I mean?  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit says unto the church.  He that overcometh.  Overcomes what?  His colossal stupidity and ignorance of His everpresence.  You understand?  And he will be able to discern, find and know and realize.  That’s the only one that He was gonna bring and He had to overcome cause I told you the one that He was gonna bring with Him.  Is that right?  In what?  Sit with Him where? 

Reader:  and I will give him a white stone,

Dr. Kinley:  No.  Repeat. 

Reader:  To him that overcometh, I will give to eat of the hidden manna and will give him a white stone and in the stone a new name written.

Dr. Kinley:  No, I want you to repeat.  I want you to go back.  He that overcomes, will I bring.  2:17.  Repeat

Reader:  He that hath an ear,

Dr. Kinley:  He that hath an ear.

Reader:  let him hear

Dr. Kinley:  Let him hear.

Reader:  what the Spirit saith unto the assembly:

Dr. Kinley:  What the spirit saith unto the church.  Continue.

Reader:  To him that overcometh

Dr. Kinley:  To him that overcometh.

Reader:  will I give to eat of the hidden manna,

Dr. Kinley:  Will I give to eat of the hidden manna.

Reader:  and will give him a bright stone

Dr. Kinley:  and will give him a white stone

Reader:  and in the stone a new name

Dr. Kinley:  and, and in the stone

Student Body:  Revelation 3:21

Reader:  to him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,

Dr. Kinley:  There now.  Now listen.  That’s 2:17 and you’ve got 3 what?

Student Body:  3:21

Dr. Kinley:  I want this one first.  What.., 2:17.

Reader:  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit saith unto the churches.  That’s 2:17. 

Dr. Kinley:  Alright, read.

Reader:  3:21 – to him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne.

Dr. Kinley:  He that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in

Reader:  my throne

Dr. Kinley:  In my throne.  Continue.

Reader:  even as I also overcame

Dr. Kinley:  Even as I also have overcome.

Reader:  and am set down

Dr. Kinley:  And am set down.

Reader:  with my Father

Dr. Kinley:  With my Father.

Reader:  in his throne

Dr. Kinley:  In his throne.  Now listen here folks.  They said, is there anything said there about Peter’s throne?

Student Body:  No, no.

Dr. Kinley:  Is there anything said there about Yahshua the Messiah’s throne?

Student Body:  No sir.

Dr. Kinley:  Is there anything said there about Elohim’s throne?

Student Body:  No sir.

Dr. Kinley:  But in His Father’s throne.  Is that what it says?

Student Body:  That’s what it says.

Dr. Kinley:  Now he’s gonna bring them that overcome to sit with Him in His Father’s throne.  Now you can get all of your exalted feelings out of your minds.  And they’re setting around perched on some exalted thing, these big shots and little shots and…  Get all of that out of your mind.  Now if He don’t have no throne, if Yahshua the Messiah don’t have no throne, what’s he doing with one?  And you got a translation up here, Elohim, that you call God.  Now notice we told you time and time again, God is a title and He couldn’t have a throne.  No title, no throne.  So now if you wanna remove the title and call Him Elohim, which is a title for Yahweh, and he ain’t got no throne.  Is that right?  `Well, why did you say that?’  Because it says my Father’s throne.  Now I was just trying to be just this:  He was all of us Father (get the point) so that all have overcome are to able to set with Him in His Father’s throne.  Now go back to the stone in 2:17 and read it.

Reader:  He that hath an ear

Dr. Kinley:  He that hath an ear

Reader:  let him hear

Dr. Kinley:  let him hear

Reader:  what the spirit saith unto the churches;

Dr. Kinley:  What the spirit saith unto the churches.

Reader:  To him that overcometh

Dr. Kinley:  Now those are the 7 churches in Asia, that the epistle was addressed to.  What they’re ___.  Now listen, you in all your stupidity, you and all your dogmatic concepts, ideologies and opinions.  Now Yahweh told him, John’s letter, sent that letter to them and the papacy had not arisen as yet.  ___ but it just hadn’t risen yet and he did not send the letter that he wrote to Rome for a imprimatur or for any scrutiny.  John was told on the Isle of Patmos to write what He saw and heard.  Is that right?

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  I’m trying to show you how that you have been deceived all along and I’m trying to show you that I, my name that you know me as Henry Clifford Kinley, that really is.., you know my earthly name, just like when He spoke to Moses, and said, `Moses, Moses,’ and He spoke with Paul on the road, He said, `Saul, Saul,’ so he wouldn’t miss to recognize that He was talking to him because He has everybody’s name all enrolled up there in the book, that’s not the book Moses wrote.  And he knew him personally, I mean Moses.  Moses.  Now when it’s all said and done, while Yahweh had to identify him by the name, just like you have identified me by my name, Henry C. Kinley and I likewise recognize you by your name that your parents and all gave you.  And some are running around and saying `well look, we took the name of our slave owners.’  And raised a lot of sand about that.  Well, I heard some say around here that they had been in the penitentiary and in other different things, a lot of you have been in trouble, I been in jail myself, I’ve disobeyed Uncle Sam’s orders.  But now here I, I’m still a prisoner and I don’t have not way to break out of this jail.  And anybody that has been to the penitentiary or any other prison, for that matter, all of them that haven’t been, you’re no better than the fellow that has been. 

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  You don’t have no boasting to do about.  Now alright.

Reader:  To him that overcometh

Dr. Kinley:  Um hum. 

Reader:  I will give to eat of the hidden manna

Dr. Kinley:  Um hum.  of the hidden manna.

Reader:  and I will give him a white stone,

Dr. Kinley:  I will give him a white stone.

Reader:  and in the stone

Dr. Kinley:  And in the stone.

Reader:  a new name written,

Dr. Kinley:  It’s a, a, a brand new one.  Alright read.

Reader:  which no man knoweth

Dr. Kinley:  Which no man knoweth.

Reader:  saving he

Dr. Kinley:  Wait a minute.  Now don’t no man know it.  How’s anybody, how’s anybody gonna know it?

Reader:  saving he that receiveth it.

Dr. Kinley:  Saving he that receives it.  Now if you haven’t received, then you don’t know nothing about the name, that is my new name.  You know me by Henry C.  You know me well, but that’s not my name.

Student Body:  Alright.

Dr. Kinley:  Not my new name.  And don’t nobody know nothing about that but me and you that have received it.  Now when I got up here, I got up here to tell you with the knowledge and the gift that you haven’t discerned what my name is, is because you don’t know what yours is, other than just calling one another by the name that you’ve already got.

Student Body:  Alright.

Dr. Kinley:  Get the point?  And for that reason you don’t discern who’s talking.  And since you don’t discern who’s talking, it’s not necessary to obey.  Get the point?  And that’s the reason why some of you haven’t.., you haven’t obeyed at all.  You got first one excuse, then the other.  We tell you to come to class, come to school and then you making a Wednesday or a Friday, can’t make it.  You’re out there on Sunday, just any kinda way.  You know the reason why?  Cause you don’t know who’s talking, who’s talking to you.  We’ve had you to come to this convention, so you would come, you’re here, some of you.  Some of you are here and some of you are not here that are here. 

Student Body:  Alright.

Dr. Kinley:  You understand what I’m talking about?  You may be here in bodily presence, just like I’m here in bodily presence but that doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re here.  Get the point? 

Student Body:  Yes.

Dr. Kinley:  Now.

Reader:  3:21

Dr. Kinley:  3:21

Reader:  To him that overcometh

Dr. Kinley:  Now to him that overcometh.

Reader:  will I grant to sit with me in my throne,

Dr. Kinley:  In my throne.

Reader:  even as I also overcame,

Dr. Kinley:  Even as I also overcame.

Reader:  and am sit down with my Father in His throne

Dr. Kinley:  And am sit down with my Father in His throne.  Now look and listen, there have been so many errors made by these false prophets and teachers that I have pointed out to you, all of these religious organizations have made it.  Now it was prophetic that this abomination would be universal, abomination of desolation.  And some of you haven’t hea.., just haven’t heard a thing about it, the real truth.  And that’s why I’ve had such a problem.  Now I told you what my new name was, you know my old one.  Is that right? 

     Now, I think I should tell you this.  I think I should.  You have a brain in your head.  And your brain.., ask any medical doctor, cranium.  Is that right?  And that cranium in your brain, in that brain, now you listen at what I’m going to tell you.  I told you this, not too many times, but I had a reason for telling you now.  That brain is just like roots and limbs, let’s say limbs on a tree, the limbs on a tree that would bring forth fruit in its season.  It wouldn’t bring forth no fruit until the season is right.  Be careful now in what I’m telling you.  There are people that are going around now and they been doing it a long time, chanting.  You know what chanting is?  You could classify it as vain repetition.  You want me to chant some?  I’ll give you a chant.  Hail Mary, Mother of God, and you know about the fruit of your womb and so forth.  Hail Mary, Hail Mary, Hail Mary, Hail Mary, Mother of God.  Now how, now the reason why I told about that, and the reason why I’m telling you about it is now they’ve got chants in Buddhism, they got chants and every other kinda thing.  They say, `well if you don’t understand, you just do what I tell you, repeat what I’m telling you, after me, don’t matter whether you see any sense in it or not, just go ahead and repeat it.’  Well now, what’s happening there is this, for your information, them, them branches that coming out, cutting grooves in your brain, that’s them branches coming out.  And by and by when she grows unto fruition, she’s ripe.  You understand?

Student Body:  Yes.

Dr. Kinley:  And then, it’s just like searing some rubber, elastic with a hot iron.  What’s happened?  You’re burnt up.  Yahweh sent you a strong delusion and caused you to believe that lie.  And you get satisfied in it.  You don’t wanna hear nothing nobody’s got to say.  You just know good and well, you know the truth.  See how it works.  Well now, that’s the way you have been raised all your life, so it’s necessary for me to tell you these things about what our new name is and since the folks is running around saying, `now look, I’ve found what I’ve been looking for.’  Been in front of him all the time, he found what he’s looking for.  `Now I’m satisfied.’  He won’t hear nothing nobody else got to say about it.  He’s sealed with a strong delusion and don’t know no more about Yahweh.  Don’t know nothing about Elohim.  Don’t know nothing about Yahshua the Messiah. 

     And here you have your Bible, King James Version.  It’s a matter of absolute impossibility for you to get the truth out of it, ___ about that.  Well, somebody says, `I know good and right,‘  said, `we have the Vulgate.’  This one’s been imprimatured, that’s by Jerome.  King James Version, Archbishop Ussher, the Court of England, quite a few of them worked on that Book, instead of just one Jerome by himself.  Would you expect that one man by hisself to do as well with it as somebody else?  Couldn’t be so stupid about that.  There was 70 elders that helped Moses back there.  You couldn’t expect one man to do.., unless you were the right man.  And there wouldn’t be any interpolations and mistranslations in it, if you get the one man that I’m talking about, but Moses didn’t have that book.  And this one that he did have which you call the Old.., New Testament, they just messed it all so bad, written with pen and ink; and the apostle themself telling you that, that they wasn’t writing no New Testament. 

     And Yahweh said.., listen folks, I tell you the truth, you can’t find nothing out there in Babylon that’s right, absolutely nothing.  And since you can’t find nothing because it isn’t out there, the abomination of desolation which is prophetic and it’s supposed to come down unto this present time.  Now do you think Yahweh’s gonna be a liar?  You don’t, you don’t think it’s out here.  You understand what I’m talking about?  I said I didn’t wanna take up a whole lot of ___ and then I didn’t want to take up a whole lot of time in this thing.  Now it’s driven me around to a place where there isn’t hardly any of you that can take my place to tell anybody anything about me and get it straight and right.  I almost have to do it myself.  And I don’t wanna keep on telling you about myself, `well,’ you say, `that man is preaching hisself.’  Now for example.., would you mind standing up, would you mind standing up.  Turn around here.  If, if there’s anybody in this room that can’t tell which one of `ems black and which one of `ems white, just step forward.  Now this is the, this is the president, this is the vice president.  Now we put `em there permanently so you wouldn’t have to come in here and ask what kind of outfit it is or, or is white people accepted or that the, the founder and dean of yours and all that kinda thing.  Get the point?  `What’s his racket?’  And we have been charged many times of being communist and every other kinda thing you can think of.  And people look at me.., say, `well look you oughta be for your people.’  Well I am.

Student Body:  (LAUGHS)

Dr. Kinley:  You just got my people mixed up. 

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  Now the reason why it’s this way is so you don’t have no trouble.  Since you can’t see nothing otherwise, so we just have to put a black one up here and a white one.  Now you don’t have to ask no question about that, so then that means that when he was born ___.  Do you see me get up?  Every few, every time, do you see that? 

Student Body:  No.

Dr. Kinley:  Now this man, it was stated…


Dr. Kinley:  And seeing offer, people offering me money.  And I’m not sure, I haven’t looked over the audience to see.., there’s a man setting out there, if he’s present.., that worked for people worth better than a 100 million dollars.  And you setting in the car with me, $18,000, special built Continental.  What is the rest of that thing, Continental what?

Student Body:  Limousine.

Dr. Kinley:  Limousine.  And the man I’m talking about, if he’s setting back there in the audience, he was setting up there driving.  And I’m going out on a mission to do something for the person.  And when I got there the first thing I told her, she’d never seen my face, first thing I told her, `look, I don’t want a dime out of you, I don’t want no money out of you at all, I want you to get that understanding before we get started, now, what is the reason you wanna say to me, go ahead and say it.’  And she told me about her son.  And I, I haven’t seen, I haven’t seen her son’s face yet in the flesh, not even till this day.  And I did just what she asked me to do.  And you were setting right there.  Is that right?

Dr. Gross:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  Your clients.  And you’re a medical doctor, no quack.  You’re looking at one, not one of ‘em but you’re looking at the smartest medical doctor there is in the world.

Student Body:  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  I don’t care what you think about it, how you feel about it, and what you believe about it, cause he knows what I’m talking about, cause he was there.  I don’t ___ without that, that woman, you’re a little closer to him than that.  Thank you reverend.  Now here’s what I wanna get over to you.  Now that man, and there’s others that are setting around here, have seen millions upon top of millions of dollars offered to me.

Man:  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  I can’t take it.  I am a pauper.  I will remain a pauper by choice.  Well, what’s it all about?  Let’s put 2 and 2 together.  When Yahshua the Messiah was walking around here on the earth, healed everybody, raising the dead and everything else.  Is that right?

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  He said the foxes have holes and the birds, they have nests but the Son of Man don’t have nowhere to lay His head.  He was one of the richest poor men you’ll ever see.  Now I have to take that attitude on this account, I don’t want you to think, I’m gonna make it my business to see to it that you don’t think it, by rejecting your money that you offer to me for the job done.  And I wanna let you know ain’t nobody around here that done any greater than what Yahweh has did through me.  Ain’t nobody around, ain’t nobody walking around alive.  These, these, these people know about that, but if I had a whole lot of money, then you would say, as they did say about me when I come to California…  There was about 70 families sold out everything and just come on back here, I don’t mean come back, I mean come out.  I didn’t tell `em to come out, they just come on.  And you know what folks said about it, said, `now, he’s a smart man, he’s a wise man.’  They knew what all had happened around there, the doctors and the hospitals and everything else.  Said, `he’s gonna get `em out there and he’s gonna get everything that they got.’  ___ ___ ___.  Now you watch what I tell you.  And they went so far as to write up some of that kinda stuff.  Get the point?  I said I’m a pauper and all these folks that come out there with me, about 70 families, have I took anything from you?

Student Body:  No.

Dr. Kinley:  Have, did you ever hear me ask any of you for a penny?

Student Body:  No.

Dr. Kinley:  Did you ever hear me get up here in the pulpit and say anything about any money?

Student Body:  No.

Dr. Kinley:  You see?  Now the reason for that is I don’t wanna blind your mind.  I got something far more important to get over to you and I’m not gonna beguile your mind thinking I want something and I need something and I’m trying to work you for something.  And you ain’t got nothing to give me.  I’m giving you, just like the Messiah.  That’s right.  Now I thought it was my duty to alt.., just alter this service and tell you them things.  And there’s a lot of things I could tell you that I don’t think right now you’re ready, but I though it was time for me to tell you about that which I haven’t been telling you.  And for 35 years of my life I walked around with a deep esoteric secret that I could not tell you until here, just before the convention in 1967.  And I think something else I should tell you too.  It’s absolutely necessary for me to tell you.  I’m not afraid to die.  You heard me say many times, I would rather be dead than to be bothered with you.  I’m just as sick of you as you are of me.  And as a man in the flesh, I don’t expect you to care anything about me.  And I’ll tell you to your face, I don’t care nothing about you.  That ain’t, that ain’t, that ain’t, ain’t what it’s all about.  I don’t care about you, Mixon.  Where’d you get the idea that I cared something about you?  Do you see what I’m talking about?  Who do you think you are anyhow?  Well somebody says, well, who do you think you are?’  Well, I know who I am, do you know who you are?  You got to know.  Messiah didn’t die out there on the cross to save Bob Harris, Leonard Snellbaker, or Mixon.  That ain’t what it’s all about.  And then listen, there isn’t anybody going to heaven, black, white, I don’t care nothing about that, there ain’t, ain’t nobody.  Somebody says, `my goodness gracious me, what do you mean by that?  Don’t you know that John said that there was 144,000 standing out on Mount Sion or the earthly flesh that’s going to heaven and the rest of them…’  No, I didn’t know that.  It’s not like that.  There ain’t nobody.  He didn’t die out there to save nobody.  And listen, let me give it to you straight.  Paul said in Romans, in a twinkling of an eye, we shall all be changed.  All means body, therefore he said, nobody, no place.  Yahshua the Messiah didn’t come in like that.

Student Body:  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  And neither are you.  If you could just realize how badly hoodwinked you have been all of your life in all the ignorance and superstitions and traditions and customs and ideologies and opinions and concepts that you got.  See what I mean?  This convention is important folks.  There will be no more conventions like this one.  There will be another convention, and everybody will be there. 

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  That’s right.  Every, now I don’t mean recon…  You get the point?  You don’t have to worry, you’ll be there.  Now we’ve got the song, `When the roll is called up yonder, I’ll be there.’  That’s in the song.  You’re singing about it.  Get the point?  Now these things are absolutely necessary and essential.  Now could I just say one more thing.  I wasn’t…

Student Body:  Alright Doc.  Take your time.

Dr. Kinley:  Now if I say it, if I say I come in my own name, Henry C., that’s  a lie.  You’re acquainted with old Henry C.  Henry C. lived here, even though my address and telephone number is not in the book, I mean in the telephone directory.  And the reason why I’m bringing out these things out to you, do you see me walking out there among these people all surrounded with guards.  Do you see that? 

Student Body:  Yes.

Dr. Kinley:  Ever since I have been in the hotel, I told you I wasn’t afraid to die, you’d be doing me a favor but we have letters in our files, where them same people that brainwashed and circumscribe and got all this junk in their mind that they are right and that their church is builded upon Saint Peter.  And they are taught to kill in defense of the church.

Student Body:  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  And we have letters in our files where they’ve set in the audience and listened at me speak and then went out and wrote a letter back and wouldn’t even sign their name to it.

Dr. Traynham:  We have one letter here now. 

Dr. Kinley:  Now you see.  And let’s don’t expose it.  He’s, he’s got it, he’s got it right there now.  Now I am not a fool.  The devil was a murderer right straight from the beginning.  And it is not time for me to plant the seed till I tell you what it’s all about.  I know what it’s all about, devil don’t like it.  You’re not allowed to talk like that, not supposed to do that.  Well, I know that.  See the point?  `Well,’ said, `Jesus said, now He..,’ first one thing and then another.  Yeah when He come, He said, `I didn’t come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.’  They’re reasoning within their minds and since there’s an old satanic, they’re all tied to it with a carnal mind.  They wouldn’t allow you to give you no ___ ___.  Now look, now if they had known that the scriptures said, `there is none righteous, no not a one.’  Now you see what He knew about His Bible.  And whenever He would do one of them nice things like healing somebody.  See they wanted to have conference or something or other with Him.  They come and psycho Him, like they done with me many times.  `Good master.’  `Why do you call me good?  There’s none good but the Father.’  You see they ___.  They just can’t think in that category or in that channel.  You can’t think right, somebody said, `well, I thought, ___ ___ I’m mad.’  Um um.  That won’t do either.  `I thought…’  Now whatever you thought, that’s wrong.  You admit it that you thought it, didn’t you? 

Student Body:  Yes.

Dr. Kinley:  I’m almost just right. 

Student Body:  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  Now he comes to me and said, `well I thought so and so, and so and so.’  Is that what you do from time to time.  Well, that’s wrong, if you thought it.  It ain’t like that.  `Who said so?’  Yahweh said, `now my thoughts is not your thoughts, and neither is my way, your way.’  What’s the difference?  It’s just as high above your thoughts as the heavens is above the earth, but you don’t perceive when you’re talking like that, but I do.  See what I mean?  Oh yes old reverend I got you covered.  Somebody said, `you come on to our church and hear our preacher preach.’  There ain’t no need of me wasting my time, I’ve been over there alright.  And that, these, these meetings that’s going on right in this building here they tried to tell me about ___ this and that and the other.  Get the point?  And they’re satisfied and they done found what they’re doing and all like that.  (SOMEONE COUGHS) around.  Buddha.  Lot of people don’t even know who Buddha is.  His name is Siddhartha Gautama.  And he’s one of.., he’s got around 600 as they say Before Christ, and learn.  But I tell you, I wanna say something about this fella.  If they tell you they will do a thing, they’ll do just that, what they say they will do, you can depend on them but you cannot depend on a Christian, cause a, a Christian said, `let me have so and so until I pay you back Saturday tonight, when I get paid.’  Now if you wanna end this tonight, if you wanna end it let him have it, you don’t expect him to pay it back.  But the best way to do that is, say, `no, I won’t lend you nothing, how here’s what you’re asking for, I’m, I’m, I’m not, I’m not lending you anything, so that means you won’t have to pay it back, so you won’t have to be dodging across the street and up and down the alley and across the lane, you can, you can just pass on by, and say hi, how you feeling, Doc.’  `Sorry buddy, I haven’t got nothing right now.’  You ___ my nature, cause you, you told me you were gonna pay me back Saturday night and I told you uh uh not that.  Now I keep you from dodging and keep from making you an enemy, cause Saturday night just, it just hasn’t come yet.  I don’t want you to go on Sun.., or Monday morning to dodge me the rest of your life on account of Saturday night.  Get the point?  I don’t wanna make enemies like that.  And now listen, lot of you have come to me and told me to my face that you knew that I didn’t have no money.  I just got through telling you I was a pauper.  And they come and tell me right to my face, `I know you ain’t got nothing doc, but so and so is lacking in my family.’  What you saying, is, `because I, that costs between 9 and 100 and 1000 dollars.’  So if you knew I ain’t got nothing, what did you come out there to see me for?  And you told me to your, to my face when you got there you knew I didn’t have nothing.  And there’s people setting around here who would know about these things.  I said, `look, I’ll see you at 9:30 tomorrow.’  Now that don’t mean the next couple of days after that.  That’s 9:30 the next day.  And I’m gonna watch my watch too.  And I’m not gonna let it become 5 minutes to 10.  If anything I’m gonna be there before 9:30.  Say, `here’s that 1000, ain’t no bargains, didn’t say nothing about paying it back, here it is,’ ___ ___ ___ cause he’ll never have it.  That’s the truth of the matter.  I know he won’t, he didn’t.  __ ___ ___ ___.  You know I didn’t have nothing, the next thing you know I come up with 500 dollars this afternoon ___ ___ ___.  Now you might want to stop and ask me, say, `hey, where did you get this?’  That ain’t none of your business.

Student Body:  Alright.

Dr. Kinley:  Yahshua the Messiah feed the multitudes out there, didn’t He?  It wasn’t none of their business, they ___ ___ ___.  Is that right?  So then ___ ___ ___ cut out, ain’t none of your business.  Now I said these things to tell you this.  Now this is gonna sound like a lie, listen, all the things I’m saying to you now is, that I’ve told you thus far, and the reason why I just got through telling you about that is because I want to tell you something else.  It’s coming up.  You see this work here.  You have a book, it wasn’t ___ ___ everybody.  Is that right?

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  You see the picture there.  I don’t know whether any of you got any ___ where or not.  Here’s one, let me show it to you.  Now here’s a, here’s the book we just wrote and we’re talking about being on sale out there.  Ain’t any colored pictures in the book at all.  Not, not the first.  We don’t have no money to put it in color and they told you that we come here to put it in movie pictures. 

Every which a way you thought the devil’s got you blocked and they’re right setting on top of the ___.  Now you see how.., see the color in these, in these, in these charts.  Now that’s a bed sheet over there by the door, that’s the first one I made.  That’s call, what we call that an elementary chart, that is 37 years old.  And you are not going down on Broadway and buying any of that good, lasted for 37 years rolling it up and down, rolling it up and down, rolling it up and down, rolling it up and down.  You’re not going down there and buy one.  ___ ___ ___ cause there may be some good ones down there.  Now listen, Yahweh Elohim told me to make these charts.  I didn’t make it cause I wanted to, and I’ll tell you this in a minute and to your face.  I ain’t making no more charts, if you can’t learn from these, I’m sorry.  If you can’t learn from the things that Yahweh has, has given through me, if you can’t learn from that and from what I’ve showed you about the vision, I’ve done wrote it out as Habakkuk 2:2 said, `write the vision, make it plain,’ I did.  And listen, let me tell you something, nobody from nowhere has ever been able to dispute what I say.  You can’t do that.  Now we’ve got `em setting up in this school that’s been out there, for some of `em as high as 40 years and they’re on the who’s who in America list.  We’ve got celebrities and multi-millionaires in the school on the honor rolls.

Student Body:  (LAUGHS)

Dr. Kinley:  That’s right.  Every which a way.  And I get up and say something or other like that and people look around, `you telling me one of them silly looking people..‘ and all like that.  `And how many of you are ___ that?’  You ain’t got, you ain’t seen nothing yet.  And there’s more that you haven’t seen than you will ever see walking around here.

Student Body:  (LAUGHS)  Yeah, that ___ ___ (LAUGHS)


Dr. Kinley:  Who belongs to that thing.  Get the point?  Well I’ll tell you who belongs to it.  I’ll tell you who belongs to this:  all of them that Yahweh intended to be on this earth and all of them that, that was in heaven.  That’s right.  And listen, the whole family, I’ll tell you about that name.  Said the whole family in heaven and earth are called by that same name.  Now what I wanna know, do you belong to the family?  You haven’t told me yet how many is in there.  Satan’s tail drew the 3rd part of the stars of heaven.  Abraham couldn’t count the stars and so it was counted.  Is that right?  Maybe I better just go on and shut up. 

Student Body:  No.  Speak.  Go on. 

Dr. Kinley:  We’ll take a, we’ll take a count down on the whole business.  How’s that?  You wanna know how many’s in here and how many’s out.  That’s why I’m telling people, ___ ___ see through them, even with eyeglasses that’s under the microscope you can’t see nothing, you can’t hear nothing.  How many belong to that thing.  And they been telling you that the school was chartered back down in, in Ohio in 1931 and every time you get up here they tell you about that.  I’m getting sick of it.  Now look he didn’t say it was a church.  If it was a church, I couldn’t be the founder and the dean, I mean Henry C.  Old Henry C’s the founder and dean of this school, but old Henry C. is not the founder and the dean of the church.

Student Body:  (LAUGHS)

Dr. Kinley:  And for your information, and for your information, said, `who is, who, who, who’s your teacher down there in that school.’  Said, `old Henry C.’  Uh uh.  Say, `well who?’  Say, `we got to put something down here, we got to make a report.’  Now since you have to make a report then you put down old Henry C. is, is the dean and founder of this school down here but don’t try to fool nobody, the government’s up there on us.  Now I think that you should understand if I teach you something.  Yahshua the Messiah said when the comforter is come, He told the disciples that, when the comforter is come (listen) said He’d receive of mine and show it unto you.  Is that right?

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  When the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit is come, He’ll do the teaching.  We just got too many teachers.  I’m not the teacher, fellow, the Holy Spirit is the teacher.  That’s the reason why we can’t, so many things you don’t understand and don’t wanna hear it.  Get the point?  In other words, wait just a minute.  Now what should he ___ ___ ___.  Must I do this?

Student Body:  Yes.

Dr. Kinley:  Well, see this chart here, see this chart here and then you kinda see it here, go along here but that ain’t where the thing started at.  They’re having trouble and that old satanic spirit cast out of heaven and it just come all the way down through the ages and dispensations of time, it come right on down, right on down to where you are.  This is what happens.  He just transforms.  2 Corinthians tell, say that Satan himself is transformed into a angel of light or a Doctor of Divinity or a pope or a cardinal.  ___ ___ ___.  Transformed.  They were transformating over there.  See the point?  Just changed up, you know?  And listen, you don’t want no stuff, you don’t want no raising no cain around, no he can’t fool you like that.  He wants you to put on the very best of some kinda religious garb and get as high up in religion as you can get.  He can’t fool you out there running up and down the street with a pistol in your hand and robbing somebody.  Now you see what I’m talking about?  He’s got to make the grade.  Here he is up there with all of his eloquence, extemporaneous oratory.  Reach on back in etymology and lexicology, that’s the derivative and meaning of words.  And his gestures and genuflexuation, that boy sure is smart. 

Student Body:  (LAUGHS)

Dr. Kinley:  That’s right.  Get the point?  Now that’s the way, that’s now, that’s the way, that’s the way they work out here.  He changed over, that’s the only way he’ll fool you, and he may praise you.  Now, He cast down that old serpent.  Let’s, let’s take it from here.  And his tail drew the 3rd part of the stars from heaven, course this is where he’s really cast down at.  Now his tail, you are always asking me how many?  Now his tail drew the 3rd part of the stars from heaven.  Now when He told Abraham to count `em and He would multiply his seed as the sand of the sea and as the stars of heaven.  Is that right?  So when you get to counting down on how many stars there is, just, just take a 3rd part of `em and you got, you got how many.  And there’s enough devils to go around too.

Student Body:  Yes.  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  Kinda got doubled up there at one time – legions.  Ain’t that right?  Then in the 12th chapter of, of Hebrews, remember these are jews.  Look at the 22nd verse.

Reader:  But ye

Dr. Kinley:  18th verse, try that.

Reader:  For ye are not come

Dr. Kinley:  Now look.  These folks had come to the, a mountain, they could lay their hands on it, just like you lay your hand on your face, just like you can lay your hand on your face, down on the street corner, the buildings and all.   Now you haven’t come to nothing like that.  That’s the way it was back here.  You can lay your hands on anything around here.  You see what I mean?  But now, we talked.., now look, this is an epistle to the jews, and please not the gentiles.  Now He’s telling the Jews, `ye are not come..

Reader:  unto the mount

Dr. Kinley:  unto the mountain

Reader:  that might not be touched

Dr. Kinley:  and that might not be touched

Reader:  and that burned with fire

Dr. Kinley:  Read that out…

Reader:  for ye are not come to the mount

Dr. Kinley:  you are not come to the mount

Reader:  that might be touched and that burned with fire

Dr. Kinley:  uh hum

Reader:  nor unto blackness

Dr. Kinley:  um hum

Reader:  and darkness

Dr. Kinley:  um hum

Reader:  and tempest

Dr. Kinley:  um hum

Reader:  and the sound of a trumpet

Dr. Kinley:  um hum

Reader:  and the voice of words

Dr. Kinley:  um hum

Reader:  which voice they that heard

Dr. Kinley:  Now, that’s.., this is what he’s talking about here.  When Yahweh spoke the commandments from the mountain, Elohim.  And now look, He told them at that time, say, `don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t touch that mountain.’  You come to one here that you can lay your hand on, but then don’t you touch it.  If you do you’ll be thrust through with a dart.  And Moses had to put some kinda partition around there, or `come this far, mark it, don’t get no closer, just don’t get no closer.’  Alright. 

Reader:  which voice, they that heard

Dr. Kinley:  Now which voice they that heard.  Now when we’re preaching up here, yeah, you haven’t heard nothing.  You had eyes to hear with and ears to hear but ain’t heard about it, you didn’t know that the gun was loaded.  You understand what I mean by that parabolical expression.  Alright read on.  But they that did hear…

Reader:  which voice, they that heard entreated that the word

Dr. Kinley:  Now look, look, let, let, let, not getting, getting away from it.  And said, `don’t let him speak, Moses, don’t let Him speak that no more.’  Is that right?  `You got Him, you tell Him, you talk to Him, get out and.., cause we don’t want Him speaking to us no more,’ that mountain’s dancing out there.  ___ ___ ___ and all.  Is that right?

Reader:  entreated that the word should not be spoken to them anymore

Dr. Kinley:  Now, we don’t want it anymore.  Read on.

Reader:  for they could not endure that which

Dr. Kinley:  And they couldn’t stand it.  Alright, read.

Reader:  For they could not endure that which was commanded.

Dr. Kinley:  They, they couldn’t endure, endure that which was commanded.

Reader:  And if so much as a beast touch the mountain,

Dr. Kinley:  That’s right.

Reader:  it shall be stoned

Dr. Kinley:  um hum

Reader:  or thrust through with a dart. 

Dr. Kinley:  um hum

Reader:  And so terrible was the sight

Dr. Kinley:  And so terrible was the sight

Reader:  that Moses said

Dr. Kinley:  that Moses.  Now look, here’s a man that spoke to Him down there in Egypt and brought `em on.., at the burning bush and go on down there and brought `em all out right to the mountain out there.  You see what I mean?  And now here’s Yahweh communicating with Moses.  And after all the signs and the wonders He performed down there.  And now here’s Moses, the man is right along with him.  And there he was standing out there shivering and shaking.  You see what I mean?  He shook too.  Alright, read on Doc.

Reader:  and so terrible was the sight that Moses said

Dr. Kinley:  that Moses said

Reader:  I exceedingly fear and quake

Dr. Kinley:  You haven’t, you’re not afraid by yourself.  You see the point?  Alright, read.

Reader:  but ye are come unto Mt. Sion

Dr. Kinley:  Now you see what they do is hang up on `em.  Would you repeat that again.

Reader:  but ye are come unto Mt. Zion

Dr. Kinley:  I’d like a little, I’d like a little stress put up, cause you done read the thing so many times and recite and recite and read.  And that’s the reason why I tell you, most of us, we don’t know where you are, if we did, we wouldn’t talk like each other and act like you act.  Would you mind reading that again.

Reader:  Go back to read the 18th verse and then go right through?

Dr. Kinley:  And, and, well.  I don’t know how far you got down there but I don’t have too much time.

Reader:  Alright.

Dr. Kinley:  but read on, get the conjunction

Reader:  But

Dr. Kinley:  But. 

Reader:  ye are come

Dr. Kinley:  Hold it, hold it.  These ands, buts and fors… or these conjunctions joined together to two complete thoughts.  Now, you’re not come to a mount that could be touched and that, they wasn’t allowed even to touch that.  And that’s a natural thing, couldn’t lay your hand on it.  But is a conjunction joined together 2 complete thoughts.  But ye are come, talking to the jews.  Is that what it said?

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  Read it to you.

Reader:  But

Dr. Kinley:  But

Reader:  Ye are come unto Mount Sion

Dr. Kinley:  But ye are come to Mount Sion.  You have already arrived, the jew.  Is that right?

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  Now there’s always somebody talking about going to heaven.  Always somebody talking about the sins of the jews back over there in Palestine, which they’re fighting around with.  Is that right?  But ye are come.  Come to what?

Reader:  Unto Mount Sion

Dr. Kinley:  Unto Mount Sion.  Now here’s mount Sion.  Right there, crossed through the River Jordan, and here’s Mount Sion there.  You are come to Mount Sion. 

Reader:  And unto the City of the Living God. 

Dr. Kinley:  And unto the City of the Living God.


Reader:  The heavenly Jerusalem.

Dr. Kinley:  No doc, we ain’t gonna buy that.  We ain’t gonna buy it at all.  We’re just not gonna have it.  And to the heavenly Jerusalem, a heavenly Jerusalem.  Is that right?  Now what we try to do, we try to find out about, how many is in and out.

Reader:  And to an innumerable

Dr. Kinley:  And to a 144000

Student Body:  No. 

Reader:  And to an innumerable

Dr. Kinley:  To an innumerable company of who?

Student Body:  Angels

Dr. Kinley:  Angels.  Would you like to run that through the brain and through the adding machine and subtract these that heard the Messiah ___ and you got how many.  Alright.  Innumerable company of angels, only you hadn’t even thought about Michael and Gabriel and ___ and ___ and all them angels, you never even thought about `em being in the church.  What would you look like going up here with a angel that flew through the midst of heaven?  And count the number of angels there, he’s just trying to chunk him down and in some water.  ___ ___ ___.

How would you like to stand up and say, `Jesus said for us to baptize you angels.  Said, be careful.  Alright, read on.

Reader:  and to the general

Dr. Kinley:  And to the general assembly.  That means all that is to come.  Alright, read on.

Reader:  to the general assembly

Dr. Kinley:  to the general assembly

Reader:  and church of the firstborn

Dr. Kinley:  and church of the firstborn

Reader:  which are written in heaven

Dr. Kinley:  Which are, yups, hold it now.  Hold that now.  Hold that real tight.  Don’t you forget now that Peter had to ___ kingdom, he excommunicate, so before you start to count how many’s there.  Have we got the book?  ___ ___ ___.  Cause you have to explain to the power that put you in heaven and purgatory and all that kinda thing.  Now wait a minute, now you was raised up in that.  Get a check up on that.  Do you see what I mean?  Do you see what I mean?  Now you can, if you all wanna know, to a innumerable company of angels.  Now he excommunicated.  Now Pope Pious the 12th, I don’t think you heard about it or not, he promoted the archangel Gabriel, could you imagine something like that?  He promoted him.  The archangel Gabriel over all the lines of communications, over the TV’s and the radio’s and every method of communication, Pope Pious promoted him now.  Now they say when they don’t.., one Pope sends out an eject or an insentia the oncoming Pope cannot rescind it.  And Pope John come along and before that angel throw that, run out there and ___, a mistake, made a mistake about the end of the world and Pope John Paul he was gonna be the last Pope.  And when he found out, he said, then Pope John demoted him.  Now you thought that was wonderful didn’t you?  Them lies, the father of lies.  Look over here, as it says in the 14th chapter of Romans the 17th verse says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.  I want to know whether that is right or not.

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  And whether the Bible said it or not.  Okay, Pope Pious the 12th in 1950…  What a disgraceful thing, let the holy Mary Mother of God lay out there in the cemetery until 1950.  And he put her, and he put her in heaven whole soul and body, I just got through telling you flesh and blood cannot inherit.  Now he put her in in 1950, but you got that junk in your mind, you talk about Hail Mary Mother of God, the thing’s nothing but warn out, you got some truth on there to live right and you’re conscience is sealed and you believe all them lies.  And you tell me, `you mustn’t talk that way about the Most Holy Father.’  Now look, digging around over there under the Va.., under the, under the Vatican trying to find and hope to bring to the world the discovery of Saint Peter because they put the Vatican right on, on, on, right on top of him, Saint Peter.  That’s been, there ain’t been two or three years ago and I don’t think they’ve ever found him yet.  I haven’t see no final news of it but they said they come pretty close to it here not long ago.  Is that right?

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  Because it said the Church was built on Saint Peter.  Now look here, I’d like to ask you a question.  If you can reach way back yonder and get Mary the Mother of God and put her in heaven whole soul and body, what the hell are you digging down there under the altar?  (STUDENT BODY LAUGHS)  Where are you gonna ___ ___.  ___ ___ ___ around down there.  Now you know why I said that like that?  So that you would notice and wouldn’t be so quick to guess that the grave is translated hell.  And them standing around saying Pete’s gone to hell.  It’s nothing no way.  They tell you any kinda junk then cause I tell you the truth you wanna shoot me in defense of the church.  Well if I’m sent to preach the truth and teach the truth, I don’t have no other alternative than to tell you about that.  And you’re seeing out like that you don’t have.., devil’ll make you kill your mother.

Student Body:  Right.  Sure will.

Dr. Kinley:  and your father.  It’s just forbidden.  And that’s why Yahshua told `em they can believe that lie and be more blood shed.  And here I am right down here at the end, and I’m on your side trying to rescue you.  And you setting up here with all that stuff in your head, all hot in the collar at me, talking about the Most Holy Father.  And Yahshua the Messiah said, `don’t call no man on earth your father.’  And you said, `well, that isn’t what He said, I’m gonna call him the Most Holy Father anyhow.’  You see what I mean?

Student Body:  Yes.

Dr. Kinley:  You call your preacher reverend, don’t you?  That’s the same thing. 

Student Body:  Right.  Just as bad.

Dr. Kinley:  You see the point?  You see how it works?  Now I’m using them words in the King James version of the Bible, I could have said sheol for hell and I could have said destroy.  But if I say it that way and you’re not accustomed to the correct translation then you won’t recognize if I use it.  Alright read on.

Reader: to the general assembly and the church

Dr. Kinley: to the general assembly and church of the first born.

Reader: which are written in heaven

Dr.Kinley:  Which are written in heaven.  Now he didn’t have a.., Moses didn’t have nothing to do with that, John didn’t have nothing to do with that, `write that book and,’ then He wrote Hisself and there ain’t no Pope and no, no preacher, nobody gonna get no understanding out of it.  Thirty second chapter of Exodus and the third, the first and thirty third verse, says whosever sins against me, I’ll blot him out.  And John on the Isle of Patmos, talking about the same book.  Death and hell gave up the dead that were in them, and whosoever’s name was not found written in the Lamb’s Book, Moses didn’t have nothing to do with it, was cast into the lake of fire.  You get these records straight, you took out Philemeenia and all, you can’t find no record of `em.  You can’t find no record of this one either.  But every spermazoa and ___ is present and accounted for with Yahweh.  Read on.

Reader:  and to God

Dr. Kinley:  and to God

Reader:  the judge of all

Dr. Kinley:  the judge of all

Reader:  and to the spirits of just men made perfect

Dr. Kinley:  And to the spirits.  Look folks, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.  Now you want me to explain that?

Student Body:  Yes.

Dr. Kinley:  Now look, when Yahshua the Messiah was walking around on the face of the earth, to cut it up real short, raised Lazarus from the dead, had been dead four days.  Kneeled down out there at that tomb.  And He wa.., He was weeping out there at the tomb.  Somebody said, `He certainly did love Lazarus.’  He said, `you can see that He did,’ but that ain’t what the trouble is.  Jesus was weeping because of your ignorance, that you didn’t know that He was the resurrection and the life.  He told them to roll the stone out of the way.  That man been dead four days which is equivalent to four thousand years, 4 days.  You said, `that certainly was a wonderful thing.’  And here come Lazarus out of the tomb, bound him hand and foot, and they bring Lazarus forth.  Mary and Martha heard, their story was this, this is what their story was.  He’d been dead four days, by this time he stinks.  And He keep telling them, `I am the resurrection.’  Listen, this is what I’m saying.  He did not say that I am the resurrections.  Trying to make two resurrections out of it.  If you do you got to have two messiahs.

Student Body:  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  He said, `I am the resurrection,‘  Is that right?

Student Body:  Right.

Page 27

Dr. Kinley:  `he that believeth on me though he were dead,’ as was in the case of Lazarus, and all of them on back to Adam, `yet shall he live, and he that liveth and believeth in me shall never die.’  `Do you believe in this?’  `Oh yes, cert.., certainly, I know I’m gonna see my brother in the last day.’  Just didn’t get the gist any more so then they have about coming to the church and general assembly of the first born.  Just didn’t get the gist.  Said roll the stone away and so as the stone was rolled away and He did resurrect him.  Now I told you I was cutting this story up short.  You say, `what are you saying?  Wasn’t that a stupendous and wonderful thing.’  Anybody would say that, any one of us.  Now He tells the disciples greater works than these shall you do because I’m going unto the Father.  ___ could a person do than to raise a man from the dead ___ ___ ___ ___.  Now we got to preach and ___ ___ ___ ___ ___.  Now those of us that sit around and spiritually are dead ___ ___ ___ ___ have been seeing all the different ___ ___ ___ have a resurrection from the dead, then that would mean that it’s going on now.  And I hope somebody gets resurrected from the dead in this meeting.

Student Body:  Alright.

Dr. Kinley:  Alright.  Now here it is, that, you say that was a, you’d even say that was a (SOMEONE COUGHS).  Alright.  Is that what you read.  Repeat it. 

Reader:  and to God the judge of all

Dr. Kinley:  Um hum.

Reader:  and to the spirits of just men made perfect

Dr. Kinley:  You just read that.  Now I want you to turn, you stay where you are.  Somebody else turn to Matthew 27:52.  Now I’ll show you what he’s talking about that you don’t believe.  Now here he is, he died out here.  And when He went to Lazarus’ tomb, say look, He has to know these folkses name, make sure He knows the name.  If He just, if He’d just said, `dead folks come forth.’  He didn’t do it that way.  He went down to that tomb, make sure you say Lazarus, cause if you don’t you’re gonna have something on your hands, I’m fixing to prove it to you.  So, so here come Lazarus and said, `loose him,’ not the pope, `and let him go.’  Is that right?

Student Body:  Yes.

Dr. Kinley:  And you say that’s a wonderful thing.  Right?.  Now you’re gonna do greater things than that.  `Boy you must be a humdinger, to do something greater than that.’  Alright, now here He is hanging out on the cross.  `He that believeth in me though he were dead,’ dead from the fall of Adam on down.  And He is the resurrection and He is the life.  And when they planted Him in Joseph’s new tomb and  when it come time, well actually when He hung out there on the cross, when He hung out there on the cross, and they pierced Him in the side, he bowed his head and there was an earthquake.  Somebody listened out there, `I think there’s been an earthquake on the moon since the astronauts have been there.’  He said there was an earthquake and the man pierced Him in the side.  While they crucified Him for saying that He was the Son of God, that was a Roman soldier that pierced Him in the side.  And he knew what they was crucifying, but the Roman soldier didn’t know what he was crucifying Him for.  And when all that earth trembled, all them earth shaking, the Roman soldier said, `truly He was the Son of God.’  Say, `that earth and heaven is just all, is just about to pass out;’ and that man says, `truly He was the Son of God.’  Alright.  Now, read doc or whoever has it, 20, Matthew 27:52 and listen.

Reader:  and the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept

Dr. Kinley:  And the graves were opened when they put Him in the heart of the earth.  And the graves were open, not a grave, but the graves were opened.  And what?

Reader:  and many bodies of the saints which slept arose

Dr. Kinley:  And many bodies of the sons, not saints.  I can do a translation too.  Many of the sons that slept in the dust of the earth arose.  Read.

Reader:  and came out of the grave

Dr. Kinley:  And came out of the grave.

Reader:  after His resurrection.

Dr. Kinley:  Now wait a minute, now this is (HITS THE BOARD).  After He’s all freshened up.  He’s the first fruits of the resurrection.  He was raised from the dead first.  They couldn’t come out of there until after He come out.  See the point?  So many of the bodies of the saints that slept in the dust of the earth, I’m going on with the story so you can see what I mean, arose; then they went on into where?

Reader:  and went on into the holy city.

Dr. Kinley:  And went on into the holy city.  I’ll read it out of that Bible. 

Reader:  and appeared unto many

Dr. Kinley:  and appeared unto many.  Hurry up I’m.., read right along.

Reader:  Now when the centurions and they that were with Him watching Jesus saw the earthquake,

Dr. Kinley:  That’s right.

Reader:  and those things that were done they feared greatly saying, truly this was the Son of God.

Dr. Kinley:  You see that now?  This, this, this was the one.  Now here’s what he said.  Them that were dead clear on back to Adam, they slept out right there in the dust of the earth, not just Lazarus, but after His resurrection, they rose and went on into Jerusalem.  Now you were reading down here and they, they saw them, ___ ___ ___, no, they didn’t appear to everybody.  Maybe you don’t, you didn’t see them.  Alright, read on.  No not that, over here. 

Reader:  and to Yahshua the mediator

Dr. Kinley:  Now you have come to the spirit of these just men all the way through here.  You’ve come to the general assembly and to the spirits, not the body.  And then laid sinews upon `em when He brought `em up out of that grave, so that they could appear, and take off the thing, all of them back in here, the saints, and then went on into Rome.

Student Body:  No.

Dr. Kinley:  ___ ___ raising.  Well He just might as well have gone to Rome, cause Peter done transferred and moved the Holy See over to Rome. 

Student Body:  No.

Dr. Kinley:  Saving them all that trouble in transferring `em.  And went on into Jerusalem.  Is that right?

Reader:  and to Yahshua the mediator of the new covenant

Dr. Kinley:  No, no, no, no, no, no, now, Yahshua the mediator of the new covenant

Reader:  and to the blood

Dr. Kinley: and to the blood

Reader:  of sprinkling

Dr. Kinley:  and of sprinkling

Reader:  that speaketh better things

Dr. Kinley:  That speaketh better things

Reader:  than that of Abel.

Dr. Kinley:  That’s right.

Reader:  see that ye refuse not Him

Dr. Kinley:  Say, listen.  I’m telling you, whenever God Almighty speaks through this black body or any other body for that matter, regardless of what color it is

Reader:  see that thou refuse Him not

Dr. Kinley:  See you don’t you refuse Him.

Student Body:  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  You got any ___ ___ you better hear too.  Alright.

Reader:  for if they

Dr. Kinley:  For it they

Reader:  escape not

Dr. Kinley:  If they escaped not

Reader:  who refused Him that spake on earth

Dr. Kinley:  Refused Him that spake on earth

Reader:  much more

Dr. Kinley:  Much more.

Reader:  shall not we escape

Dr. Kinley:  You, you are, you’re not gonna, you ain’t gonna escape.  You’re not gonna escape these ___.  You ain’t going nowhere.  ___ ___ ___ ___.  `I ain’t gonna believe this stuff, I ain’t coming back no more.’  You don’t know where you are. 

Student Body:  That’s right.

Dr. Kinley:  ___ ___ ___.  They said you are right, got you all ___.  The earthly Jerusalem is Rome and not the …

Student Body:  No.

Dr. Kinley:  Well they said that’s the eternal city over there.

Student Body:  No.

Dr. Kinley:  Ain’t that right?  They’ll come along and tell you any kind of a lie.  Now we have come to those spirits, not bodies.  Now you got a doctrine of purgatory there.  Now John said he saw under the altar souls of them that were beheaded and he heard a cry.  Is that right?  I know where we are.  Told him to stand when you see the abomination of, of desolation, stand in the Holy Place, whoso readeth, let him understand.  Is that right?  Understand what? Where the Holy Place is, where you stand at in the, in the scriptures, and what spirit do you…  We can’t even read right.  We got the Pope setting up in here (HITS CHART.)  I just, now listen, did you get them words?  I said, He said STAND now, now here’s the Pope setting up there with a rod in his hand (we got the pictures in the book.)  And you better not come up here in that.  That’s the reason I tell you we need some money in the treasury to get this record printed up, I’m not talking about me.  You see the point?  I’m talking about you, we put it in color and everything else.  When I come up here the people say.., this is their own stuff, it ain’t mine.  There’s the picture, there he is setting right there.  See him setting right there?  ___  Now here’s hell, here’s purgatory and here’s heaven and you see him setting there.  Don’t put no picture in no book unless you document it, that’s their picture, that’s their own picture.  Now you see, see that, now this is hell.  The next picture, purgatory; and the next one is heaven.  1, 2, 3.  Now you watch the gun.  Now they got him setting down in here, it’s in the book like that and there’s some more in there.  Said, `now when you see the abomination of desolation stand in the Holy Place.  Now in the migratory pattern this is the Outer Court and this is the Holy Place, and that’s the Most Holy Place.  Here they are matched up right together.  So here’s where you would be right under the alter there and that’s where John said he saw `em at.  Right?

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  Said, `STAND.’  Now here he is setting down.  `What do you wanna stand up for?’  They stood up around the ___.  Why?  `We’re the only mark, we ain’t no time to do that setting around here.’  We’re  on the move, every time you come to school and learn a little bit more, you’re on the move.

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  You see what I.., you’re on the move.  We ain’t got no time to be setting around somewhere, sitting duck for the devil.  Now look, hell here, purgatory there and look in the book.  Now we say, they say that when you die, you have to go to purgatory and be purged from your sins in the flames of purgatory until you’re fit for appearance in the presence of God.  Course they got a dispensation on once in awhile and they get you out for about 40 dollars.  Now look, this man just got through reading and Peter said so too, said, `if the righteous scarcely escape,’ just want to escape by the skin of your teeth, where shall the sinner and ungodly appear?  The point is this, now here’s the point, they wanna run me in, I know what they’re after, now here’s the point.  Now when some of `em die, and if you don’t have enough Hail Marys to accumulate enough indulgence to get you out of purgatory, you borrow enough from Pete and borrow from Mary, the left over, borrow yours to get you out.  Now if the righteous.., John said He that is righteous is righteous even as He is righteous.  Ain’t that right?  And if the righteous scarcely escape where shall the sinner and ungodly appear?  Listen again, now he said the flames of purgatory, John said again, he said how many lies.  If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have confidence one with another and His blood, not the flames of purgatory, cleanseth us from all sins.  Is that right?

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  ___ ___ ___, not the flames of purgatory.  Here’s the ___, these boys are gonna take me outa here. 

Reader:  once more shall not we escape if we turn away from Him that speaketh from heaven

Dr. Kinley:  You, you, you ain’t going no, you ain’t going off no where.

Reader:  whose voice then shook the earth

Dr. Kinley:  Whose voice then shook the earth

Reader:  but now he hath promised saying

Dr. Kinley:  But now He hath promised saying

Reader:  yet

Dr. Kinley:  Yet.

Reader:  once more

Dr. Kinley:  once more

Reader:  I shake not the earth only

Dr. Kinley:  I shake not, just not the earth only.

Reader:  but also heaven

Dr. Kinley:  But heaven.

Reader:  and this word

Dr. Kinley:  And this word.

Reader:  yet once more

Dr. Kinley:  Yet once more.

Reader:  signifieth

Dr. Kinley:  signifies

Reader:  the removing of those things

Dr. Kinley:  the removing

Reader:  that are shaken

Dr. Kinley:  That are shaken.

Reader:  as of things now made.

Dr. Kinley:  That’s right.  And anything, temple is gonna be moved.

Reader:  that those things which cannot be shaken may remain

Dr. Kinley:  You see what I’m talking about?

Reader:  wherefore we are receiving a kingdom

Dr. Kinley:  Wherefore we are receiving a kingdom

Reader:  which cannot be moved

Dr. Kinley:  See, you’re not gonna move it from Jerusalem to Rome.  They don’t move it around ___ to Rome and all that kinda carrying on.  Can’t get move it.  You get it now?  We’re receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved and cannot be shaken.  Alright, finish up there.

Reader:  let us have grace

Dr. Kinley:  Let us have…

Reader:  whereby we may serve Yahweh

Dr. Kinley:  Whereby

Reader:  acceptably with reverence

Dr. Kinley:  Acceptably, wait, wait, wait, wait.  You don’t understand, `I’m the Pope, you fall down.’

Student Body:  No.

Dr. Kinley:  John seen that angel fly through the midst of heaven and John is ___ ___ he said, ___ ___ and John was caught up in the temple and healed a man.  Ain’t that right?

Student Body:  Right.

Dr. Kinley:  And then ___ that ___ which ___ said, `get off from here ___ ___ ___ do like the beast.’  `You ___ ___?’   ___ ___ the Pope, you say, `we ain’t worshipping the pope, we’re worshipping God through the pope.’  You got that wrong.  It was him through Yahshua the Messiah.  Now I ___ said ___ ___ since we are so many and that’s why at this convention is.  And we need you.  And we don’t care absolutely nothing about your money cause you can gain the whole world and lost your soul.  And that’s why I, I never have and I never will accept a penny from nobody for preaching cause I don’t want you to have that stuff all mixed up in your mind that I’m not preaching the true gospel and I, my life is in jeopardy for saying the things to you that I’m saying.  And I have to be ___ and the devil setting, walking around talking about like a fool.  Did you hear when they read up there about things that I had told `em about.  I told some of you up ___ and they know I told `em about the election, nomination and election and assassination of John F. Kennedy before the man was even nominated from ___ right in town.  Nobody.  I ain’t telling you a thing, it won’t help you none.  How are you gonna check it? 

Student Body:  (LAUGHS)

Dr. Kinley:  Got the Warren Commission running around and all the investigation.  The Roman Catholic.., did you know it, they shot Abraham Lincoln.  Somebody said, `How do you know about Chiniquy?’[1]1  Abraham Lincoln was his lawyer, and Chiniquy been in the Roman Catholic Church for 50 years.  That’s right, it’s on record and ___ ___.  He’s trying to get to Abraham Lincoln, cause he knew that that plot was there to assassinate him.  And he didn’t quite make the grade and they had him bumped off before he got there.  I could tell you just.., I can tell you so many things, there’s a time and a place.  Then you think I’m nutty enough to be walking around here.  Ain’t nobody can do nothing with me.  You think I’m some kind of a fool.  They, they, they, they got me now.




1.  Father Charles Chiniquy (born July 30, 1809), a French Canadian priest wrote his autobiography Fifty Years in the Church of Rome, published in 1886.  (All quotes and information below are from his extensive 597 page autobiography.)  He was a priest in the Roman Catholic Church for 25 years, 2 times refusing the office of bishop in Canada and 1 time refusing the offer in Chicago.  He did allow himself to rise to the office of The Apostle of Temperance of Canada. 


On December 15, 1850 Bishop Oliv Vandeveld of Chicago wrote Rev. Father Chiniquy in Canada requesting him to found settlements of French Roman Catholic immigrants from Canada, France, and Belgium in the Illinois area on a grand scale to rule the government of Illinois and therefore control the bread basket of the world for the Roman Catholic Church.  Following is part of that letter.

     “You are aware that the lands of the State of Illinois and the whole valley of the Mississippi are among the richest and most fertile of the world.  In a near future, those regions, which are now a comparative wilderness, will be the granary, to only of the United States, but of the whole world; and those who will possess them will not only possess the very heart and arteries of this young and already so great republic, but will become its rulers. …  It is our intention, without noise, to take possession of those vast and magnificent regions of the west in the name and for the benefit of our holy Church.  Our plan to attain that object, is as sure as easy.  There is, every year, an increasing tide of emigration from the Roman Catholic regions of Europe and Canada towards the United States.  Unfortunately, till now, our emigrants have blindly scattered themselves among the Protestant populations, which too often absorb them and destroy their faith.  … why should we not, for instance, induce them to come and take possession of these fertile states of Illinois, Missouri, Iowa, Kansas, etc.  They can get those lands now, at a nominal price.  If we succeed, as I hope we will, our holy Church will soon count her children here by ten and twenty millions, and through their numbers, their wealth and unity, they will have such a weight in the balance of power that they will rule everything. ..  The Protestants, always divided among themselves, will never form any strong party without the help of the united vote of our Catholic people; and that party alone, which will ask and get our help by yielding to our just demands, will rule the country.  Then, in reality, though not in appearance, our holy Church will rule the United States, as she is called by our Saviour Himself to rule the whole world. ..  Come and help me to make that comparatively small though thriving people, grow with the immigrants from the French speaking countries of Europe and America, till it covers the whole territory of Illinois with its sturdy sons and pious daughters.  I will ask the Pope to make you my coadjutor, and you will soon become my successor…” [1]

Chiniquy arrived in Chicago on October 29, 1851 to begin his mission there.  By November 1851 there were 50 Roman Catholic family immigrants, by spring 1852 1000 new Roman Catholic immigrants to the area, and by the end of 1852 500 more Roman Catholic families from France, Belgium, and Canada. 

In the summer of 1853 Bishop Vandeveld requested of Pope Pius IX to be transferred to Natchez, Louisiana; which the Pope accepted, replacing him with Rev. O’Regan.

The new Bishop of Chicago, O’Regan was wanted Chiniquy to turn over all the titles of the land acquired to him.  Knowing Roman Catholic Canon Law Chiniquy refused, rejecting intimidation by his superiors when he considered them fraudulent, greedy, and self motivated.  Bishop O’Regan therefore intended to get rid of Chiniquy

“He [Bishop O’Regan] had said before many people:  `I would give anything to the one who would help me to get rid of that unmanageable Chiniquy.’  Among those who heard the bishop, was a land speculator, a real land shark, [Mr. Peter Spink] against whom a bill for perjury had been found by the jury of Iroquois county, the 27th of April, 1854.  That man was very angry against me for protecting my poor countrymen against his too sharp peculations.  He said to the bishop, `If you pay the expense of the suit, I pledge myself to have Chiniquy put in gaol.’  The bishop had publicly answered him: `no sum of money will be too great to be delivered from a priest who alone gives me more trouble than the rest of my clergy.’  To comply with the desires of the bishop, this peculator dragged me before the criminal court of Kankakee, on the 16th day of May, 1855, but he lost his action, and was condemned to pay the cost.”[2]


November 13, 1855, Criminal Court of Kankakee, Illinois, Chiniquy was relieved of all charges put against him by Peter Spink, a land speculator, who was a friend of Bishop Anthony O’Regan’s of Chicago.  Mr. Spink then appealed the decision, which in turn left Chiniquy a prisoner under bail in the hands of the sheriff, who was to deliver him to the sheriff of Urbana on May 19, 1856.  Someone suggested that he obtain a well known lawyer, Abraham Lincoln to join his current lawyers, Osgood and Paddock, for that trial.  Mr. Lincoln agreed to be his lawyer in Urbana at the trial in May 1856. 

Upon being delivered to the Sheriff of Champaign County in May 1856 he first met Abraham Lincoln, (President from 1861 to 1865) who told him,

“You were mistaken when you telegraphed that you were unknown to me.  I know you, by reputation as the stern opponent of the tyranny of your bishop, and the fearless protector of your countrymen in Illinois; I have heard much of you from 2 priests; and, last night, your lawyers, Messrs. Osgood and Paddock have acquainted me with the fact that your bishop is employing some of his tools to get rid of you.  I hope it will be an easy thing to defeat his projects, and protect you against his machinations.”

David Davis was judge, who eventually became Vice President of the US in 1882.  Lincoln demolished the testimonies of the 2 perjured priest, Lebel and Carthuval (who were also pastors of French Canadian families in Chicago and who were jealous of Chiniquy’s mission) along with 10 or 12 other false witnesses.  The 1 Irish Catholic juror would not agree with the other jurors in a not guilty verdict.  The jury was therefore discharged them.  Prosecution would therefore begin again in October, 1856. 

October 20, 1856 he was delivered a prisoner to Urbana.  During the trial, Rev Mr. Lebel was the first witness called to testify against Chiniquy’s character.  Lincoln objected that Spink had no right to bring a new suit by attacking Chiniquy’s character.  Judge Davis however overruled the objection. 

Mr. Spink then said, “Mr. Chiniquy had attempted to do the most infamous things with my own sister, Madame. Bossey.  She herself has told me the whole story under oath, and she would be here to unmask the wicked man today before the whole world, if she were not forced to silence at home from a server illness.” [3]  

“Mr. Lincoln soon interrupted the silence by addressing to Lebel such cross questions that his testimony, in the minds of many, soon lost much of its power.  And he did still more destroy the effect of Lebel’s false oath, when he brought my 12 witness, who were among the most respectable citizens of Bourbonnais, formerly the parishioners of Mr. Lebel.  Those 12 gentlemen swore that Mr. Lebel was such a drunkard and vicious man, that he was so publicly my enemy on account of the many rebukes I had given to his private and public vices, that they would not believe a word of what he said, even upon his oath.”  [4]

In the conversation after that day’s testimony Lincoln said to Chiniquy,

“I have never seen 2 such skilful rogues as those 2 priests.  There is really a diabolical skill in the plan they have concocted for your destruction.  It is evident that the bishop is at the bottom of the plot.” [5]

During the middle of that night Lincoln came to his room to tell him some good news.  That day the principal Chicago newspaper ran the story that Rev. Mr. Lebel’s testimony would probably condemn Mr. Chiniquy.  Mrs. Narcisse Terrien, a friend of Mr. Chiniquy, read the story and divulged that she and a friend Miss Philomene Moffat had overheard Rev. Mr. Lebel enticed his sister, Mrs. Bossey,

“You know that Mr. Chiniquy is a dangerous man, and he is my enemy, having already persuaded several of my congregation to settle in his colony.  You must help me to put him down, by accusing him of having tried to do a criminal action with you..  If you refuse to comply with my request, I will not give you the 160 acres of land I intended to give you; you will live and die poor…  Mr. Chiniquy will destroy our holy religion and our people if we do not destroy him.  If you think the swearing I ask you to do is a sin, you will come to confess to me, and I will pardon it in the absolution I will give you..  I have that power; for Christ has said to all His priests, ‘What you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and what you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.'” [6]

Miss Moffat traveled to Urbana, met with Lincoln and explained the entire story.  She happened upon Rev. Mr Lebel in the hotel lobby.  He knew why she had appeared and attempted to bribe her out of her testimony for $100.  She refused.  The next morning Mr. Spink requested the court to allow him to withdraw his accusations against Father Chiniquy and stop his prosecutions, having found out that he, Father Chiniquy was innocent of the things brought against him. 

“Abraham Lincoln, having accepted that reparation in my name, made a short, but one of the most admirable speeches I have ever hard, on the cruel injustices I had suffered from my merciless persecutors, and denounced the rascality of the priests who had perjured themselves with such terrible colours, that it had been very wise on their part to fly away and disappear before the opening of the court, for the whole city was ransacked for them by hundreds, who blamed me for forging them and refusing to have my revenge for the wrong they had done me.” [7]

The other 2 Chiniquy lawyers charged him $1000 each; but upon asking Lincoln for his bill, he responded,

“My dear Mr. Chiniquy, I feel proud and honoured to have been called to defend you.  but I have done it less as a lawyer than as a friend.  the money I should receive from you would take away the pleasure I feel at having fought your battle.  Your case is unique in my whole practice.  I have never met a man so cruelly persecuted as you have been, and who deserves it so little.  Your enemies are devils incarnate.  The plot they had concocted against you is the most hellish one I ever knew.  … You owe me nothing.  Your enemies want to ruin you.  Will I help them to finish your ruin, when I hope I have the right to be put among the most sincere and devoted of your friends?” [8]

Mr. Chiniquy then responded,

“Allow me to tell you that the joy I should naturally feel for such a victory is destroyed in my mind by the fear of what it may cost you.  There were then in the crowd not less than 10 or 12 Jesuits from Chicago and St. Louis, who came to hear my sentence of condemnation to the penitentiary.  But it was on their heads that you have brought the thunders of heaven and earth, nothing can be compared to the expression of their rage against you, when you not only wrenched me from their cruel hands, but you were making the walls of the court house tremble under the awful and superhumanly eloquent denunciation of their infamy, diabolical malice, and total want of Christian and human principle, in the plot they had formed for my destruction.  What troubles my soul just now and draws my tears, is that it seems to me that I have read your sentence of death in their fiendish eyes.” [9]

CHINIQUY WRITES THE POPE CONCERNING CHARGES AGAINST BISHOP O’REGAN                    In 1858 Chiniquy wrote Pope Pius 9th and Napoleon III, Emperor of France, sending them 200 pages of copies of numerous and infamous suits which had been sustained before the civil courts in which Bishop O’Regan of Chicago lost along with the sentences of the judges who had condemned him.  Bishop O’Regan was soon removed as Bishop of Chicago.

AUGUST, 1858:  CHINIQUY LEAVES THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH                                   Chiniquy along with his congregation in Illinois leave the Roman Catholic Church and call themselves Christian Catholics.


1st visit:  August 1861

Chiniquy went to see Lincoln, having learned that there was a plot among the Roman Catholics to assassinate him. 

Lincoln responded, “I am so glad to meet you again, you see that your friends, the Jesuits, have not yet killed me.  But they would have surely done it when I passed through their most devoted city, Baltimore, had I not defeated their plans, by passing incognito a few hours before they expected me.  We have the proof that the company which had been selected and organized to murder me was led by a rabid Roman Catholic, called Byrne; it was almost entirely composed of Roman Catholics; more than that, there were 2 disguised priests among them, to lead and encourage them.  I am sorry to have so little time to see you:  but I will not let you go before telling you that, a few days ago, I saw Mr. Morse, the learned inventor of electric telegraphy:  he told me that when he was in Rome, not long ago, he found out the proofs of a most formidable conspiracy against this country and all its institutions.  It is evident that it is to the intrigues and emissaries of the Pope that we owe, in great part, the horrible civil war which is threatening to cover the country with blood and ruins.” [10] 

Lincoln then offered to attach Chiniquy to the ambassador of France as one of the secretaries in which he could go from Paris to Rome to learn more about the secret plans of the Jesuits against the United States.  Chiniquy declined thinking his mission with the French Canadians was of more importance.  The next day Chiniquy again met with Lincoln, at which time Lincoln asked him why the Roman Catholic press falsely published that he Lincoln was born a Roman Catholic ad baptized by a priest, and now is an apostate. 

Chiniquy responded, “For, not only my impression is that it is your sentence of death; but I have from the lips of a converted priest, that it is in order to excite the fanaticism of the Roman Catholic murderers, whom they hope to find sooner or later, to strike you down; they have invented that false story of your being born in the Church of Rome, and of your being baptized by a priest.  They want, by that, to brand your face with the ignominious mark of apostasy.  Do not forget that, in the Church of Rome, an apostate is an outcast, who has not place in society, and who has no right to live.  The Jesuits want the Roman Catholics to believe that you are a monster, an open enemy of God and of His Church, that you are an excommunicated man.  For every apostate is excommunicated.  I have brought to you the technology of one of the most learned and approved of the Jesuits of his time, Busembaum, who, with many others, say that the man who will kill you will do a good and holy work.  More than that, here is a copy of a decree of Gregory 7th, proclaiming that the killing of an apostate, or an heretic and an excommunicated man, as you are declared to be, is not murder; nay, that it is a good, a Christian action.  That decree is incorporated in the canon law, which every priest must study, and which every good Catholic must follow.  My dear President, I must repeat to you here what I said when at Urbana in 1856.  My fear is that you will fall under the blows of a Jesuit assassin if you do not pay more attention than you have done till now to protect yourself.  The unanimity with which the Catholic hierarchy of the United States is on the side of the rebels is an incontrovertible evidence that Rome wants to destroy this republic, and as you are, by your personal virtues, your popularity, your love for liberty, your position, the greatest obstacle to their diabolical schemes, their hatred is concentrated upon you; you are the daily object of their maledictions.” 

Lincoln responded, “I have a presentiment that God will call me to Him through the hand of an assassin.  Let His will, and not mine be done. ..  I will be forever grateful for the warning words you have addressed to me about the dangers ahead to my life from Rome.  I know that they are not imaginary dangers. ..  The Pope and the Jesuits, with their infernal Inquisition, are the only organized powers in the world which have recourse to the dagger of the assassin to murder those whom they cannot convince with their arguments or conquer with the sword.  Unfortunately, I feel more and more, every day, that it is not against the Americans of the South alone I am fighting, it is more blood thirsty slaves, than against the real American Protestants, that we have to defend ourselves.  Here is the real danger of our position.  So long as they will hope to conquer the North, they will spare me; but the day we will rout their armies, take their cities, and force them to submit, then, it is my impression that the Jesuits, who are the principal rulers of the South, will do what they have almost invariably done in the past.  The dagger, or the pistol of one of their adepts, will do what the strong hands of the warriors could not achieve.  This civil war seems to be nothing but a political affair to those who do not see, as I do, the secret springs of that drama.  But it is more a religious than a civil war.  It is Rome who wants to rule and degrade the North, as she has ruled and degraded the South, from the very day of its discovery.  There are only very few of the Southern leaders who are family relatives, and their friends.  Several members of the family of Jeff Davis belong to the Church of Rome.  Even the Protestant ministers are under the influence of the Jesuits without suspecting it.  To keep her ascendancy in the North, as she does in the South, Rome is doing here what she has done in Mexico, and in all the South American Republics; she is paralyzing, by a civil war, the arms of the soldiers of Liberty.  She divides our nation, in order to weaken, subdue and rule it. .. But there’s a thing which is very certain; it is, that if the American people could learn what I know of the fierce hatred of the generality of the priests of Rome against our institutions, our schools, our most sacred rights, and our so dearly bought liberties, they would drive them away, tomorrow, from among us, or they would shoot them as traitors.  but I keep those sad secrets in my heart; you are the only one to whom I reveal them, for I know that you learned them before me.  The history of these last thousand years tell us that wherever the Church of Rome is not a dagger to pierce the bosom of a free nation, she is a stone to her neck, and a ball to her feet, to paralyze her, and prevent her advance in the ways of civilization, science, intelligence, happiness and liberty.”  [11]  

2nd visit:  June, 1862 

June 11, 1863:  Chiniquy and his congregation affiliate themselves with the Presbyterian Church of Canada

After Chiniquy left the Roman Catholic Church between 1863 and 1886 30 public attempts were made on his life, he was stoned 20 times, and beaten with whips and sticks.  During his tenure as a Roman Catholic priest and afterward he was a prisoner under bail as a criminal by charges of friends of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, 32 times; called before the civil and criminal courts of Kankakee, Joliet, Chicago, Urbana, and Montreal.

3rd and last visit:  June 8, 1864 (10 months before Lincoln was assassinated (April 14, 1865)

Chiniquy again visited Lincoln to warn him against the impending dangers which he knew were threatening him for the Pope had written Jefferson Davis.  Lincoln invited Chiniquy to attend as his guest a meeting the next afternoon, when he received the delegation to which they would ask Lincoln to officially announce the desire of the country to remain as President. 

“He also went on a carriage ride with Lincoln who many times told him that, “this war would never have been possible without the sinister influence of the Jesuits.  We owe it to Popery that we now see our land reddened with the blood of her noblest sons.  Though thee were great differences of opinion between the South and the North, on the question of slavery, neither Jeff Davis nor any one of the leading men of the Confederacy would have dared to attack the North, had they not relied on the promises of the Jesuits, that, under the mask of Democracy, the money and the arms of the Roman Catholic, even the arms of France, were at their disposal, if they would attack us.  I pity the priests, the bishops and the monks of Rome in the United States, when the people realize that they are, in great part, responsible for the tears and the blood shed in this war; the later the more terrible will the retribution be.  I conceal what I know, on that subject, from the knowledge of the nation; for if the people knew the whole truth, this war would turn into a religious war, and it would at once, take a tenfold more savage and bloody character.  It would become merciless as all religious wars are.  It would become a war of extermination on both sides.” [12]   

Chiniquy confides to Lincoln, “That letter from the Pope to Jeff Davis is a poisoned arrow thrown by the Pope, at you personally; and it will be more than a miracle if it be not your irrevocable warrant of death.  Secret and pressing letters were addressed from Rome to the bishops, ordering them to weaken your armies by detaching the Catholic men from you.  The bishops answered, that they could not do that without exposing themselves to be shot.  but they advised the Pope to acknowledge, at once, the legitimacy of the Southern Republic, and to take Jeff Davis under his supreme protection, by a letter, which would be read everywhere.  That letter, then tells logically the Roman Catholics that you are a blood thirsty tyrant, a most execrable being when fighting against a government which the infallible and holy Pope of Rome recognizes as legitimate.  The Pope, by this letter, tells his blind slaves that you are an infamous usurper, when considering yourself the President of the Southern States; that you are outraging the God of heaven and earth, by continuing such a sanguinary war to subdue a nation over whom God Almighty has declared, through His infallible pontiff, the Pope, that you have not the least right:  that letter means that you will give an account to God and man for the blood and tears you cause to flow in order to satisfy your ambition.  By this letter of the Pope to Jeff Davis you are not only an apostate, as you wee thought before, whom every man had the right to kill, according to the canonical laws of Rome; but you are more vile, criminal and cruel than the horse thief, the public banditti, and the lawless brigand, robber and murderer, whom it is duty to stop and kill, when we take them in their acts of blood, and that there is no other way to put an end to their plunders and murderers.  And my dear President, the meaning I give you of this perfidious letter of the Pope to Jeff Davis, is not a fancy imagination on my part, it is the unanimous explanation given me by a great number of the priests of Rome, with whom I have had occasion to speak on that subject.” [13]  

Lincoln responded, “You are right when you say that this letter of the Pope has entirely changed the nature and the ground of the war.  Before they read it, the Roman Catholics could see that I was fighting against Jeff Davis and his Southern Confederacy.  but now, they must believe that it is against Christ and His holy vicar, the pope, that I am raising my sacrilegious hands; we have the daily proofs that their indignation, their hatred, their malice, against me, are a hundredfold intensified.  New projects of assassination are detected almost every day, accompanied with such savage circumstances, that they bring to my memory the massacre of the St. Bartholomew and the Gunpowder Plot.  We feel, at their investigation, that they come from the same masters in the art of murder, the Jesuits. …  From the beginning of our civil ware, there has been, not a secret, but a public alliance, between the Pope of Rome and Jeff Davis, and that alliance has followed the common laws of this world affairs …  The Pope and his Jesuits have advised, supported, and directed Jeff Davis…  The Pope has thrown away the mask, and shown himself the public partisan and the protector of the rebellion, by taking Jeff Davis by the hand, and impudently recognizing the Southern States as a legitimate government…  The Mormon and the Jesuit priests are equally the uncompromising enemies of our constitution and our laws; but the more dangerous of the two is the Jesuit – the Romish priest, for he know better how to conceal his hatred under the mask of friendship and public good:  he is better trained to commit the most cruel and diabolical deeds for the glory of God.” [14]  

Other items of interest:

On December 31, 1869 Chiniquy forced the Right Reverend Bishop Foley, the replacement of Bishop O’Regan of Chicago to swear before the civil court at Kankakee that the doctrine of the Church of Rome as taught in all the Roman Catholic seminaries, colleges, and universities, through the “Summa Theologica” of Thomas Aquinas (Vol 4, p. 90):  “though heretics must not be tolerated because they deserve it, we must bear with them till, by a second admonition, they may be brought back to the faith of the church.  But those who, after a second admonition, remain obstinate to their errors, must not only be excommunicated, but they must be delivered to the secular power to be exterminated.”

About 41 Pages

[1]              Charles Chiniquy, Fifty Years in the Church of Rome (Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1958 – reprinted from the London edition, 1886), p. 350.

[2]                 Ibid., p. 400.

[3]                 Ibid., p. 465.

[4]                 Ibid., p. 465, 466.

[5]                 Ibid., p. 467.

[6]                 Ibid., p. 473.

[7]                 Ibid., p. 470.

[8]                 Ibid., p. 471.

[9]               Ibid., p. 472.

[10]               Ibid., p. 493.

[11]               Ibid., p. 495 – 497.

[12]               Ibid., p. 498, 499.

[13]               Ibid., p. 500.

[14]               Ibid., p. 501 – 503.